Kevin's Watch

The Many-Colored Land by Julian May. Crazy Stein and his Viking ways

What are the odds of two of you reading those Julian May books at the same time?

Dust of Dreams. Good to be back with the Bonehunters

Fist and Faith wrote:What are the odds of two of you reading those Julian May books at the same time?

Had the four books of the Pliocene Exile saga for a while now, but have not gotten around to reading them yet, fool that I am. Ms May has a very intelligent, playful style that hits all the right balances, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself!

(Also, it looks like this thread has degenerated into a "the book I'm reading that Fist likes/recommended" )

Orlion wrote:(Also, it looks like this thread has degenerated into a "the book I'm reading that Fist likes/recommended" )

And the Watch is a better place for it. Although "elevated" is the correct word.

Magnificat. Last of the Milieu books.

--A

The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson

Just finished His Dark Materials, the trilogy by Philip Pullman (The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass).

Before I begin shredding, let me say that I loved His Dark Materials for its characters and settings, and the plot and storyline certainly were more than satisfying. I will never forget Iorek Byrnison, or Roger, or Serafina Pekkala; nor the ravishing landscapes in which the story plays out. In fact, the trilogy suffers from just one glaring flaw; it is a brilliant of ineffable value and beauty, with a serious flaw riving its very heart.

That flaw is its completely puerile and contemptuous understanding of both the Church and Christianity. To the unschooled, its understanding may appear deep because of its references to the arcane mysteries of Enoch’s translation, and to the prediluvian sons of God who loved the daughters of men; but these have nothing to do with the following of Christ. Pullman mistakes true religious faith for what some followers of Christ call “Churchianity”- religious activity that leads only to the glorification of its own institutions; a failing that infects not only Roman Catholicism but every fellowship of believers, from Lutherans to Baptists. But it does not define Christianity, nor negate the true power of faith to energize and transform lives. Pullman remakes God in the image of man: mortal, pathetic, delusional, self-aggrandizing and isolate. The Authority of Pullman’s prose he names “Jehovah, El-Elyon” etc., but the mad and dying old man in the crystal case bears no resemblance to the Living God who spoke suns and mountains into being, whose Spirit bears more resemblance to the all-important Dust than to anything else in the story, including the frail angels.

Pullman did the trilogy a gross injustice by reframing the Church as the dead and life-sucking religion portrayed in the books. Was he that desperate for something to stand as "The Man" against whom the fond, life-loving people and angels of the universe could rebel with our shinng approval? Maybe it worked fine for those who cared nothing about the Church, or God, but for me it drew the quality of the otherwise amazing worlds he created down; like an amazing meal of blended flavors and exotic spices, served with a warm, flat (maybe even bitter) Coke. After all, it was God who taught me to feel starlight on my skin, to savor the fresh morning, to rejoice in the sweet faces of children.

Warm, flat Coke aside, it was an AMAZING trilogy and overall I love it. Just not unconditionally, like Orlion.

deer of the dawn wrote:
Warm, flat Coke aside, it was an AMAZING trilogy and overall I love it. Just not unconditionally, like Orlion.

Oh, ha ha.

Funny you should mention the Enoch connection. I, too, felt that was just out of no where. Did not add anything to the conflict either.

There was a lot he could have done with the trilogy. Instead, he decided he had to make sure that the reader knew he had read Paradise Lost and some William Blake. It is detrimental to remind the reader that he/she could be reading something better.

As far as the central themes are concerned, what Pullman was trying to do there could be laudable (essentially trying to create an atheist Chronicles of Narnia). As with Chronicles of Narnia, these themes can rub one the wrong way, particularly when they are not as overt.

And what's up with the complete character change of Lyra?

Pullman seems to be a genuine fan of Paradise Lost, rather than using it to try and look clever - the edition I have has an introduction by him.

I started the Golden Compass and got a good ways through it but something about the metaphysics of it started to bug me and I bailed out. Not really sure why, maybe the feeling was of something too simplistic. I can't read Potter either

u.

ussusimiel wrote:I started the Golden Compass and got a good ways through it but something about the metaphysics of it started to bug me and I bailed out. Not really sure why, maybe the feeling was of something too simplistic. I can't read Potter either

u.

Harry Potter, have you tried from Book 3 on? Book 1 and 2 are pretty juvenile and simplistic and set up. From Book 3 it's gets less and less juvenile and more complicated (Not suggesting you skip the first two, just wondering if you've suffered through them and still had trouble)

Orlion wrote:

deer of the dawn wrote:
Warm, flat Coke aside, it was an AMAZING trilogy and overall I love it. Just not unconditionally, like Orlion.

Oh, ha ha.

Funny you should mention the Enoch connection. I, too, felt that was just out of no where. Did not add anything to the conflict either.

There was a lot he could have done with the trilogy. Instead, he decided he had to make sure that the reader knew he had read Paradise Lost and some William Blake. It is detrimental to remind the reader that he/she could be reading something better.

Orlion wrote:
As far as the central themes are concerned, what Pullman was trying to do there could be laudable (essentially trying to create an atheist Chronicles of Narnia). As with Chronicles of Narnia, these themes can rub one the wrong way, particularly when they are not as overt.

And what's up with the complete character change of Lyra?

I also had trouble with the sudden maturity of two 12-year olds in love. The emotional connection I understood, but I have never met a 12-year old who could articulate their minds and hearts like Will and Lyra suddenly could.

ussussimiel wrote:I started the Golden Compass and got a good ways through it but something about the metaphysics of it started to bug me and I bailed out. Not really sure why, maybe the feeling was of something too simplistic. I can't read Potter either

If you find time, it's worth it for the other merits of the books. I can't vouch for Harry Potter although I feel I should try again-- when they came out and my son, who was 11 at the time, asked me if it was okay to read them I told him, let's read them together and see what we think; and then neither of us even finished the first book-- so thanks for the heads-up, sindatur. I do love the movies. Probably some of the best production design of any films ever. And the stories are pretty good.

Orlion wrote:As far as the central themes are concerned, what Pullman was trying to do there could be laudable (essentially trying to create an atheist Chronicles of Narnia). As with Chronicles of Narnia, these themes can rub one the wrong way, particularly when they are not as overt.

I've always found this assertion odd. The Catholic Church denounced the books as "atheism for kids" (as if that could be such an inherent evil- how many children's Bibles are there?) But Pullman's universe isn't atheistic as I understand atheism.

Spoiler

Motes of consciousness underlying all matter?

As for the polemic, I didn't see him attacking anything so broad as Christianity- seemed pretty clear to me the Catholic Church was his target with the whole Magisterium plot line, and as far as that goes plenty of his criticisms are valid.

Cambo wrote:

Orlion wrote:As far as the central themes are concerned, what Pullman was trying to do there could be laudable (essentially trying to create an atheist Chronicles of Narnia). As with Chronicles of Narnia, these themes can rub one the wrong way, particularly when they are not as overt.

I would question the laudability of such an endeavor.

I've always found this assertion odd. The Catholic Church denounced the books as "atheism for kids" (as if that could be such an inherent evil- how many children's Bibles are there?) But Pullman's universe isn't atheistic as I understand atheism.

Spoiler

Motes of consciousness underlying all matter?

Mm, I suppose Pantheism would be more accurate.

As for the polemic, I didn't see him attacking anything so broad as Christianity- seemed pretty clear to me the Catholic Church was his target with the whole Magisterium plot line, and as far as that goes plenty of his criticisms are valid.

Good point, but he failed to earn the right to criticize at the level he did. Imho. And anyone within the Church was a stunted, two-dimensional villain. Father Gomez had the potential to be really interesting, but he never got there.

BUT the books are worth reading for scenes like the epic claypit fight, and the bears, and Will.

I'm Murrin wrote:Pullman seems to be a genuine fan of Paradise Lost, rather than using it to try and look clever - the edition I have has an introduction by him.

Great, what's next? An edition of Beowulf with an introduction by Neil Gaiman?

Orson Scot Card's Crystal City.

--A

So, I read Kings Wind Through The Keyhole this weekend, and now I've started book 1 of a series that (I think) StoneMaybe recommended to me.

The book is called Rivers of London by Ben Aaronovitch, and I'm enjoying it so far.

Sort of like what Jonathon Strange & Mr Norrel could have been if it was about twice as good and set in 2012.

--A

Now there's a recommendation.

Merchanter's Luck by C.J. Cherryh. A good space romp. It's in an omnibus called Alliance Space with another book called Forty Thousand in Ghenna which I really like. It has a great alien species in it. I don't know if I'll reread it though as it's still clear enough in my mind.

Anybody know any of her other books? These are the only ones I've ever read.

u.