Kevin's Watch

Xar, those are some incredible insights into Linden's character. I think you're right about her having more unresolved issues now than TC did at the beginning of 2nd Chronicles.

Connecting your post and Earthpower's, I think a sign of her issues is the fact that she IS a healer who--for some reason or other--is thwarted from healing . Jeremiah is beyond healing. So is Joan. And then Anele resists the hurtloam. And Stave doesn't want her to heal him. Her patients resist her primary driving passion. (Well, not the Ramen girl). Perhaps this is prophetic of her attempts to save the Land.

Well, it's obvious enough why shee needs the staff.

first, she needs it to get her health-sense back, since she'll probably need it to locate Jeremiah. Second, she's planning on fighting Lord Foul, or at least his servants, to get her son back. The White-Gold still remidns her of covenant. Nobody ever told LINDEN "you are the white gold." It's not fully her power.

Plus, her enemies have white-gold as well.

Finally, she hasn't been envenomed, but remember that the law has been further weakened. If Joan is able to endanger the arch of time by calling Caesures, Linden, who is far mroe powerful, could probably destroy it.

What I find interesting is the fact that she is now sun-sage and ringwielder, as the elohim originally wanted. That seemed likie the answeor to the second chrons, but it's not enough now. Linden has become mroe powerful than anyone in the land ahs ever been before. But she doesn't understand, as Covenant does, the helplessness of power.

What I'm trying to figure out is-- how can she fail, when she has the Ring and the Staff? What is the flaw, what is the problem that those two forces cannot resolve? I'm not yet sur,e but look forward to finding out.

I thought it was "obvious" too, but it is not so to everyone.

I wonder... in looking up something for another thread, I was reminded that Donaldson said: [Mhoram] could have said of Linden in TROTE, "You are the Staff of Law". And there are other quotes, most of which I posted upthread, which reinforce the idea that the Staff is tied to Linden in deep and mysterious ways.

Let me propose a hypothesis: Linden does not spend a lot of time thinking about why she needs the Staff because she is so closely tied to it that the desire for it is automatic, below the level of introspection.

Wayfriend wrote:I thought it was "obvious" too, but it is not so to everyone.

I wonder... in looking up something for another thread, I was reminded that Donaldson said: [Mhoram] could have said of Linden in TROTE, "You are the Staff of Law". And there are other quotes, most of which I posted upthread, which reinforce the idea that the Staff is tied to Linden in deep and mysterious ways.

Let me propose a hypothesis: Linden does not spend a lot of time thinking about why she needs the Staff because she is so closely tied to it that the desire for it is automatic, below the level of introspection.

I agree that it is obvious why Donaldson wants her to have the Staff. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a writer. Don't know if I mentioned it ( ), but I'm working on my own fantasy novel. I'm not reading this as a "reader." I'm looking at it from the perspective of: what if I were writing this myself? What would I do differently? I'm constantly asking myself whether I've made my own characters' motivations clear, or if I've left out necessary details because I know them so intimately that I take them for granted. It is precisely those aspects which are the most obvious that are the easiest to leave out of the text.

So let me propose a counter-hypothesis of my own: Donaldson does not spend a lot of time writing about why Linden thinks she needs the Staff because he is so closely tied to this theme that it is automatic, below the level of explicit articulation. He has said repeatedly on the GI that aspects of his book that are the closest to his heart as those that he assumes everyone else understands, too, so there is some justification for this theory.

Malik, you'll enjoy this:

In the GI, Steve Brown wrote:On the Watch there is a question that has us chasing our tails...Where or What is Lindens reason to retrieve the Staff Of Law? Or how does she think it will help her find her son?

It does not appear to be in the text?

I'm sorry: I thought this was obvious. Linden needs *power*. She figures that she'll have to go through Lord Foul to get to Jeremiah. But she can't go up against Lord Foul bare-handed; and Covenant's ring doesn't suit her needs or her abilities (surely *that* is in the text?) to the same extent that the Staff of Law does. If you needed to fight for someone you love, which weapon would you prefer: a thermonuclear device that you can't reasonably hope to control, or a high-powered rifle with which you happen to be proficient? Plus, of course, the Staff is essential to the Land; and she *does* care about the Land.

(edit to add comments...)
It appears that Malik is right about it being something that SRD just assumed we all knew. But I never really questioned why she thought she wanted the Staff; it just made sense, pretty much in the way that SRD describes it. So it's either in there in a quote that we can't find, or it's implied through various parts, which all combine to show us why she does.

for whatever it's worth, i pretty much had the same reasoning as SRD, though I couldn't necessarily point to an example in the text

Relayer wrote:It appears that Malik is right about it being something that SRD just assumed we all knew.

Gah!

Malik's point is that SRD assumed we all knew it AND SO DIDN'T WRITE IT.

A point which is so far from settled as to be almost debunked.

Some text references (far from exhaustive) are upthread.

I agree with Malik that SRD did not write it in the text the way that Malik wanted it to be written or the way that he is asking it to be written.
What SRD did was give just enough for us to understand and even agree with Lindens desire to get the Staff.

I asked that Question to SRD in the GI and got the answer I was looking for. He thinks enough of US as readers to not have to explain why Linden gets the Staff...WE know why!

Thematically, remember what Linden spent much of her time doing in the Second Chronicles: trying to get the power to heal, to defy death. That's what she always wanted; that's what she made the Staff to do. She spent two books being tormented by the Sunbane; she used the Staff to resolve it. Short in length of time, perhaps, but vast, vast in size of symbol, in successful resolution.

The problem is, she wants the Staff so much that she's willing to break the Land to get it -- she wants the symbol of her power enough to break the place she healed with it.

This is going to have consequences. Oh, my, this is going to have consequences.

tonyz wrote: The problem is, she wants the Staff so much that she's willing to break the Land to get it -- she wants the symbol of her power enough to break the place she healed with it.

This is going to have consequences. Oh, my, this is going to have consequences.

Yes, exactly! That's the problem I was having too (well, among others). And yes, I agree that it will have consequences. I think we can all sense this. Indeed, it is largely reponsible for the tension in Runes: that her actions will doom the Land.

Oh well, I followed up his answer to Jerico's question with another question, pretty much summing up my points here. Hopefully he won't think it's too argumentative to answer it!

Whilst the Staff is a powerful tool/weapon for Linden to use in pursuit of Jeremiah and fighting the dirt, masters, ravers and Foul, it is also a talisman for Linden which she is clearly connected to in a like manner to TCs connection with the White Gold; it (and the power manifested in it) validates her.

I am reminded of Covenant's introduction to the land, his motivation and conversion largely at the hands of Foamfollower on the road to Revelstone (read Damascus). His motivation too left the concerns of the land as secondary, but he came around via the integrity of those who believed in him and his core goodness. Linden is also creating a group who's concerns have already started to weigh upon her and deflect her course. Linden wants to save Jeremiah, I wonder at the parallel between Jeremiah and the Land. He lives in a fog like Kevin's Dirt and clearly has some connection to it or an aspect of it which has not yet been revealed. Is saving Jeremiah saving the land as well?

SRD seems to be playing parallel themes; I think there's a number of levels being played out here, both in the surface and obvious context and also at a book level, Chronicles level and series level. Is Linden playing out Covenant's role and will this develop her to a point where she and Covenant can resolve their love?

The staff is not yet fully developed, like the ring in Chronicles one; perhaps Linden has to learn the value of earning power and dealing with its consequences anew because she was pretty much gifted the power in Chronicles 2.


I think I'm rambling a bit but a number of posts on here especially Malik's seem to trigger in my mind similar incidents which reflect actions in TROTE. I also think that these are being deliberately introduced both as dramatic devices and also to lay out the tableaux for the final chronicles. we have seen many of the pasts protagonist brought up to date and re-introduced through their current generational characters, the Haruchai, Ramen, Ranyhynn, Urviles, Stonedowners etc. Similarly we are being giver the intro to the devices of power and the conditions of power afflicting the Land. Some are missing but they are no doubt being kept back for final lines in chapters and final chapters in books.

Maybe she needs the staff as a walking aid.

I must admit that I never really saw the problem with Linden needing the Staff of Law. I guess it just made sense to me so I never questioned it. However, upon reading SRD's second explanation (good question btw Malick ), I find myself left with an even greater understanding.

Malick23 (I think) wrote:Mr. Donaldson,

You recently answered a question about Linden needing the Staff of Law in Runes. I'm the one who stirred up things on the Watch with regards to this issue. I hope you don't mind if I take your response as an opportunity to clarify my question.

I agree that it is obvious why *you,* as the author, need Linden to get the Staff (it is linked to her thematically and literally, suiting both her role in the overall story arc as wells as her particular talents as a character). What I thought was absent from the text was an explicit description of Linden *herself* knowing why she needs it.

After pages of debate, the best quote I've seen pertained to the exact issue you raised in your answer: that she needs power, but can't risk using the ring. Specifically, you had Linden say in Runes: "Maybe I can rescue him with wild magic, maybe I can't. But I can't do it without risking the Arch, and that's too dangerous. I need the Staff. Otherwise I might do enough harm to end the Earth."

While this is indeed evidence that Linden has a specific reason for taking the great risks necessary to regain the Staff, I don't understand those reasons. For example, Covenant was apparently able to confront Foul in the 1st Chronicles without endangering the Arch. In addition, Linden is much more precise in her mastery of the ring than Covenant ever was (using it to heal Giants, Haruchai, to create a stable ceasure, etc.).

One final source of confusion for me is your assertion that she wants the Staff to save the Land. Yet, in Runes, you give us the impression that Linden will risk anything--even the Land--in order to regain her son (hence the risky way she regains the Staff). Specifically, you wrote in Runes: "She had lost her son, and would dare any devastation to win him back. In her scales, he outweighed the life of worlds." Thus, I thought it was your purpose to use this as a source of tension and suspense, to turn our expectation of Linden once again being a "savior" (or at least a "healer") on its head by using her actions as an unintensonal source of danger.

Can you help me sort this out? Thanks!

Nathan.

In reply, SRD wrote:There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about this. You’re not the only one posting questions on the subject. And yet…I’m completely baffled. How is not obvious--from Linden’s POV, not mine--that she needs the Staff of Law?

Let’s ignore the fact that Covenant *told* her she needs the Staff. Her driving goal is to rescue her son: a far more concrete and (in the context of the story) realistic objective than, say, defeating the Despiser. But LF has Jeremiah. She can’t expect to wrest her son free with a few harsh words and a meaningful glance. So she needs power: that’s a given.

But she has power: white gold. You say her control over it is more precise than Covenant’s was. I say her ability to use it *at all* is more arduous and tenuous than his ever was (e.g. Esmer’s mere presence blocks it). (In the first trilogy, Covenant was inhibited by his Unbelief, not by anything inherent to his relationship with white gold.) You say “Covenant was apparently able to confront Foul in the 1st Chronicles without endangering the Arch.” I say, No, he destroyed the Illearth Stone. That’s not the same thing. I say Linden knows that wild magic tends to scale out of control; that every use of it makes it more difficult to control. And I say that wild magic is *exactly* the power LF *wants* his enemies to use against him (because of the threat to the Arch: part of Covenant’s triumph in the first trilogy is that he did NOT confront LF with wild magic directly). He wins if he can just get someone, anyone, to attack him hard enough with wild magic. And Linden is smart enough to know how dangerous her position is.

Meanwhile she can see at least a theoretical possibility of recovering the Staff of Law. As other readers have pointed out, the Staff is known to be inadequate against Despite. But remember that Linden’s goal is to rescue Jeremiah, not defeat LF. (Not that she would *object* to defeating LF, or would refuse to do so if she got the chance. But for her that’s a secondary issue.) So. There’s a great power that suits her (she made it, after all), that she knows she can use effectively, that is inherently incapable of giving LF what he wants, and that she has good reason to think is essential to the Land’s survival (and I do not mean LF’s defeat: LF’s defeat and the Land’s survival are not automatically the same thing; but the Land *is* threatened by Falls, against which the Staff is the perfect defense). What sane person who shared her goals would *not* want to retrieve the Staff?

And by the way: of *course* Linden wants to preserve, even save, the Land. That may not be her driving goal, but she does *care* about it. How could she not?

(Incidentally, I stand by my nuclear bomb/ high-powered rifle analogy. White gold has the capacity to destroy everything: the Staff can be used with immense precision.)

Of course, it’s possible--even likely--that the author failed to explain any of this clearly in “The Runes of the Earth.” <sigh> “Leaving out the obvious” is a problem which never ceases to bedevil me. And, I assume, other people in my position.

I haven't been a participant in this debate, but part of my confusion is that Linden used wild magic like a surgeon's knife in 2nd Chronicles, but now it's a sledge hammer in her hands. Also, this point about the tendency of wild magic to scale out of control was never made obvious in either 1st or 2nd Chronicles.

Yes, DLB, those are real points of issue. But Runes, if anything, has most of the hallmarks of a mystery, and I would allow that the answers to these issues could come out in time.

Actually, at this point I am concerned for Mr. Donaldson. It seems as if Malik (?) has succeeded in making him doubt himself. I feel compelled to reassure Mr. Donaldson that there are plenty of others who found Linden's motivations sufficiently articulated.

No, don't say to me anything about the right to ask whatever you want in the GI. No, don't say to me anything about SRD being sufficient to handle whatever attacks come his way. Because what bothers me is the potential (however slim) that this kind of adverse assault will mar the Last Chronicles (a possibility I had not imagined until now). No amount of being in the right will make up for that outcome.

Great post Wayfriend!!

Assault? Hardly. It's a good question, and one that benefits from explaining, because as written it simply doesn't make sense.

I dunno, the idea of it making sense or not is probably up to each reader. It made sense to me.

Wayfriend wrote:Yes, DLB, those are real points of issue. But Runes, if anything, has most of the hallmarks of a mystery, and I would allow that the answers to these issues could come out in time.

Actually, at this point I am concerned for Mr. Donaldson. It seems as if Malik (?) has succeeded in making him doubt himself. I feel compelled to reassure Mr. Donaldson that there are plenty of others who found Linden's motivations sufficiently articulated.

No, don't say to me anything about the right to ask whatever you want in the GI. No, don't say to me anything about SRD being sufficient to handle whatever attacks come his way. Because what bothers me is the potential (however slim) that this kind of adverse assault will mar the Last Chronicles (a possibility I had not imagined until now). No amount of being in the right will make up for that outcome.

Oh, I don't worry too much about Donaldson doubting himself; nor do I worry about the consequences if this is the case. The worst that could happen is that he pays more attention to those very aspects which he thinks are obvious--which can only make the books better. This is what he does. It's not going paralyze him to do it more thoroughly. And I wasn't attacking him. My question wasn't any different the dozens of other consistency questions he's received. It didn't seem to me that he was irritated that I asked this particular question . . . just baffled about the need for it to be asked.

Anyway, this is NOT the first time he's admitted to a possible oversight in the area of taking the obvious for granted. It's never seemed to bother him greatly in the past. It's just one of those generic problems all writers struggle to overcome. And as you say, many people here don't see this as a problem at all. I could be completely wrong. My entire argument about there being no evidence that Linden knows why she wants the Staff has been partially met by Wayfriend's quotes, forcing me to shift my arguement to the logic behind those quotes--as I've done in my question to Mr. Donaldson. [Though, I'd argue that his best quote came long after she first decided she needed it; kind of a rationalization after the fact, instead of an explicitly narrated motivation. If it were SRD's goal to make her motivation a mystery to be revealed at a later point, then he wouldn't be arguing now that he thought it was obvious to begin with. In addition, the mere fact that it needs to be stated after the fact seems to negate the claim that it's obvious. Something fishy there . . . but I digress]

So the evidence is there, in the text, however unsatisfactory I personally find it (that's a judgement call--you may disagree). Now there remains the issues that DLB succinctly stated:

Linden used wild magic like a surgeon's knife in 2nd Chronicles, but now it's a sledge hammer in her hands. Also, this point about the tendency of wild magic to scale out of control was never made obvious in either 1st or 2nd Chronicles.

While Donaldson addressed these issues, they come across as rationalizations made--again--after the fact. We can hardly blame him for this, however, because he didn't intend to continue the Chronicles after the 1st trilogy. So it's not really his fault that he didn't make explicit in the 1st Chronicles facts that would be crucial in later Chronicles. I think that this problem arises in the imperfect process of "mining" your own previous works, and then turning those nuggets into present narrative "artifacts."

To address his GI answer specifically: it's true that destroying that Illearth Stone isn't the same thing as a direct confrontation with Lord Foul. Makes sense to me. There's less danger in that contest. ONLY a contest with LF would threaten the Arch. However . . . didn't he do more than destroy the Stone? It's been a while since I read it, but didnt' he also force LF into a regressive aging? Isn't this a direct attack upon Foul? Was the ring completely uninvolved in that attack?

The issue of wild magic scaling out of control is confused, in my opinion, by the issue of venom. I thought it was the venom which made wild magic both strong enough and uncontrollable enough to threaten the Arch--in other words, I thought that was the entire point of the venom. If white gold represents these threats all on its own, then the venom was completely redundant. One might counter this complaint by arguing that the venom worked upon Covenant, rather than the white gold . . . but then we get into semantic debates about "You are the white gold."

Another point: If it was only Unbelief that inhibited Covenant in the 1st Chrons, then isn't this issue left behind by his realization in the 2nd Chrons that the reality of the Land doesn't matter as much as his response to it? If this is the case, then we must ask again why the venom was necessary, since he's no longer inhibited as he was in the 1st Chrons. And the correllary question: if venom was necessary for Covenant to become too powerful/uncontrollable, then why isn't it necessary for Linden?

In the end, I don't think this is really a problem with Runes. As I've said above, I believe it lies in tying all three Chronicles together. And as Donaldson himself has said, "I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch."

Malik23 wrote:Oh, I don't worry too much about Donaldson doubting himself; nor do I worry about the consequences if this is the case. The worst that could happen is that he pays more attention to those very aspects which he thinks are obvious--which can only make the books better. This is what he does. It's not going paralyze him to do it more thoroughly. And I wasn't attacking him. My question wasn't any different the dozens of other consistency questions he's received. It didn't seem to me that he was irritated that I asked this particular question . . . just baffled about the need for it to be asked.

Anyway, this is NOT the first time he's admitted to a possible oversight in the area of taking the obvious for granted. It's never seemed to bother him greatly in the past.

I mostly agree with this. He doesn't seem upset or bothered in his answer, just puzzled that it wasn't clear to some. But Wayfriend is right in that there a risk involved in being so accessible to your readers while you're still writing the story. I'm sure he has gotten some pretty negative attacks, and I doubt they've affected the story.

dlb wrote:Linden used wild magic like a surgeon's knife in 2nd Chronicles, but now it's a sledge hammer in her hands. Also, this point about the tendency of wild magic to scale out of control was never made obvious in either 1st or 2nd Chronicles.

But Linden does appear to have control over the wild magic. She's able to raise just a flicker of it to get the ur-viles attention, and especially when she heals Stave, she's fighting with it, but is still able to use it surgically to heal some of his internal injuries.

I was of the impression that's why it's called Wild magic in the first place... because it was uncontrollable.

Malik23 wrote:However . . . didn't he do more than destroy the Stone? It's been a while since I read it, but didnt' he also force LF into a regressive aging? Isn't this a direct attack upon Foul? Was the ring completely uninvolved in that attack?

IIRC this was caused when Foamfollower, the old Lords (and TC?) laughed. White gold wasn't used.