The Power of Command

[KaosArcana]

CovenantJR:

But back to the discussion!..... I am adamant that Foul is not remotely human. I approve of the Haruchai name for him - Corruption - this, to me, expresses Foul's nature; he is almost a force rather than a living thing. He is evil incarnate, he existed before humans were created, and he will exist after they are gone. As F&F so astutely observed, humans are motivated by greed, malice, evil, whereas Foul is these things - it's his very nature...

I disagree. Foul has too much personality to be a force of nature. He is
a creature of vast power, but it doesn't appear that he draws strength
from the fear and despair that his victims suffer ... he just enjoys it.


Also, I don't think Foul could have existed before there were sentient
beings, and I don't think he could endure once they pass. Despite
cannot exist unless there is something capable of self-loathing.

[Fist and Faith]

And I disagree. I think it is Foul's nature to enjoy the fear and despair he causes. If he didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't call him evil. Like the wasp who lays its eggs into the living body of the spider it paralyzed, so the babies will have a living host to eat their way out of when they hatch, is not evil, despite (heh) the horror of the situation. It is the nature of the Despiser to enjoy it all. The very word Despiser implies emotions. You have to have feelings about something in order to despise it. Foul hates all beauty, and enjoys wrecking it.

In short, I don't agree that having a personality and being a force of nature are mutually exclusive.

But I do agree that Foul couldn't have existed before there were sentient beings. And that sentient being was the Creator. Despite was messing with the creation all along, and the stories never give reason to think that the Creator had to create other sentient beings first, so that Despite could come into being and then mess with the creation.

[KaosArcana]

Fist:

And I disagree. I think it is Foul's nature to enjoy the fear and despair he causes. If he didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't call him evil. Like the wasp who lays its eggs into the living body of the spider it paralyzed, so the babies will have a living host to eat their way out of when they hatch, is not evil, despite (heh) the horror of the situation. It is the nature of the Despiser to enjoy it all. The very word Despiser implies emotions. You have to have feelings about something in order to despise it. Foul hates all beauty, and enjoys wrecking it.

In short, I don't agree that having a personality and being a force of nature are mutually exclusive.

Following the logic of your example with the wasp, if Foul is
despite incarnate, then he cannot be evil because he has no
choice as to what he does and the fact that he enjoys it.

Evil implies a choice. The wasp isn't evil because that's how
evolution has designed it to propogate the species. It doesn't
have a choice in the matter.

If Foul is a force of nature then he is incapable of being other
than what he is and cannot be truly said to be evil.

[Kinslaughterer]

I think you've both proven your points very well. You've also shown me that perhaps another paradox exists with the Despiser; he is both human and deity. He chooses evil but it would seem that he has no choice. He is human in his emotions and desires but his power, immortality, and manipulations are far beyond human.

I, however, am not about to enter this arguement just make a few observations.

[Fist and Faith]

I think this is what comes of trying to put neat, tidy labels onto fictional characters! Especially when we try to do so based on our incomplete and/or imperfect understanding of things like consciousness, free will, and evil.

KaosArcana, perhaps you are right. Foul might not be evil. Maybe he is a force of nature that is the source of all evil.

[Russ99]

Here's my suggestion on how I'd use the Power of Command:

I'd have the knowledge of the other 6 of Kevin's Wards bestowed on the Loresraat or the other Lords.

Whether this could be done without summoning Kevin and breaking the Law of Death is another matter. Just maybe the Bloodguard know a whole lot more than they're letting on...

[KaosArcana]

Russ99

Here's my suggestion on how I'd use the Power of Command:

I'd have the knowledge of the other 6 of Kevin's Wards bestowed on the Loresraat or the other Lords.

Whether this could be done without summoning Kevin and breaking the Law of Death is another matter. Just maybe the Bloodguard know a whole lot more than they're letting on

I don't think that would do any good, Russ.

First, the Old Lords Lore wasn't powerful enough to defeat Foul BEFORE
he had the Illearth Stone, so I don't think it would be able to defeat
him now.

Second, the sudden infusion of all that knowledge might burn out the
Lords' minds or explode their or something.

Third, if the Lore doesn't give them Mhoram's insight, it won't allow
them to access all of the Lore anyway because of the restrictions the
Oath of Peace places on them.

[Skyweir]

mmm ... brilliant discussion all!!

i have to agree with F&F and Cov jr .. however .. and ofcourse with kin who acknowleded the brilliance of all these purported pov's ..

I dont think however .. that Foul is human or just a force of nature ..he is in fact a being .. not necessarily human .. but may well be humanoid as described by TC on his first meeting ..

ie: lol .. a bi-pedal with opposable thumbs lol ..

and F&F you didnt answer my question regarding Juntel .. you arent really Juntel are you??

[CovenantJr]

CovenantJR:

But back to the discussion!..... I am adamant that Foul is not remotely human. I approve of the Haruchai name for him - Corruption - this, to me, expresses Foul's nature; he is almost a force rather than a living thing. He is evil incarnate, he existed before humans were created, and he will exist after they are gone. As F&F so astutely observed, humans are motivated by greed, malice, evil, whereas Foul is these things - it's his very nature...

Also, I don't think Foul could have existed before there were sentient
beings, and I don't think he could endure once they pass. Despite
cannot exist unless there is something capable of self-loathing.

I never suggested Foul existed before sentient beings - he is sentient himself, as is the Creator - however, he existed before the humans of the Land were created; he existed before the Land itself was created. We have no idea how old Foul was when he was imprisoned, but there is no question that he pre-dates this particular race of humans.

As for the question of whether Foul is evil, I think it depends on your definition of evil. If you consider that "evil" requires a conscious choice, I would hold that this excludes Foul. To my mind, Foul has no choice in the matter - his only choice is how he performs his evil, IMO. When I said Foul is a force, I didn't mean to imply that he is in any way the source of evil, simply that evil is his nature - it is more than a choice or even a compulsion - he is evil because that's what he is. He can't stop being evil any more than we can stop being human. I suppose you say evil so intense is almost a species of it's own - albeit perhaps a species of one...

I'm not sure I've really clarified anything, but I gave it my best shot

[CovenantJr]

Grrr, double posting...

[[Syl]]

About personality... The Elohim are pretty much forces of nature incarnate, and to use Findail as an example, I'd say they have personality.

About the Earthblood giving knowledge of the wards... Maybe the Lords could handle it. Berek did.

[CovenantJr]

I'm not sure it would necessarily be wise to dish out all the lore of the Wards in one go. After all, the point of there being seven separate Wards was so the Lords would gain knowledge gradually, growing with it, until they were ready for the next step.

[Skyweir]

yes yes .. true enough .. the intent was soundly based .. but illogical in its application ..

how foolish of kevin to expect the Lords to discover the wards in cronological order ..

and yes there WAS berek .. he was on par with the Unbeliever .. was he also a wgw?

[CovenantJr]

I don't remember any specific mention of Berek being a wgw, but on the other hand I don't remember anything against either. And I haven't got my books with me

[Skyweir]

i guess the similarity must have just been the half-hand .. funny i have a sneaking suspicion there were more ..

in the old legendary songs .. isnt he called a wgw?

damn .. its late .. my memory poor .. and the bookshelf too far .. alas poor yorik .. i must away ..

[danlo]

No it was said that Berek knew of the whitegold, he never weilded it. Foul as the Creator's 'brother' is at least of demi-god status. And it has always been my pet theory that the Elohim r the original children of the Wounded Rainbow...and yes that makes them forces of nature. (I also believe the Elohim become wraiths when they 'deep travel', but that's another story...they could b stars, as well...)

[caamora]

I also understood things that way, danlo. Berek was aware of the white gold but never posessed it because it is not of the Land or for that matter, the world (remember whats his face in TOT- Kasryne - who desired white gold because no one had it). On that note, I have another question:

If White Gold did not exist in the world of the Land, how did the legends of white gold get started? Did it say in the prophecy about Berek being reborn (TC's coming to the Land)?

[Fist and Faith]

I am not Juntel.


I imagine the Earthpower told Berek about wild magic's role as the keystone of the Arch of Time, to protect the Arch from chaos. Unless the Earthpower told some of Berek's descendents about it, though we aren't told that it actually spoke to any of them. Amok only said that Kevin "yearned for it in vain."

[Skyweir]

yes danlo .. i too believe that legendary record of the elohim's origins .. and i agree they are forces of nature .. afterall they are earthpower incarnate ..

[psytech]

Okay, here's a wild thought. What if you commanded the Earthblood to drink itself; or perhaps command the Earthblood to become incarnate and then drink the Earthblood? I can think of a few outcomes of this:

1) nothing - commanding the earthblood itself just doesn't compute

2) Earthblood becomes incarnate and decides that ???
the possibilities are almost limitless here. One sceranio would be that Land and Earth could then cure itself, but what price would be paid?

3) The entire Universe decays into photons.

My thinking here is that you tell the Land (the Earth) to take care of itself and to push it in that direction. What it would decide is anyone's guess!!



One other thought! If Linden at the height of her awareness/vision/power had the power of command, what would she do?


I say she would have run away as fast as possible because not even her unique power/vision/sight could have predicated the outcome of any command she could have uttered.