Kevin's Watch

I don't.

But it's nice to know that my opinion is so important to you.

Don't give yourself too much credit there, Cail. I wasn't talking about you. But it's nice to know that when I try to have a discussion on faith, you take everything personally, and resort to insults and saying I preach hate. I will remember that.

Cail wrote:You guys must be a barrel of laughs around gift-giving holidays.....

If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make to you that I'm praying for you, and why do you automatically ascribe negative characteristics to that?

Edit-The answer, I think, is that your unbelief is so important to you that you simply cannot tolerate the fact that other people believe in God and have faith. You then become guilty of the same intolerance that you accuse people of faith of having.

I doubt you were addressing me but i have no problem with you praying to save my soul, or any other prayer. As far as I'm concerned I want to keep all my bases covered. And if, god forbid, you get up there before me you could always put in a good word.

I'd most definately do the same for you.

Ok, this is probably a first for me... no irony, no tongue in cheek, no cant to this post whatsoever...

Is St Christopher still a Saint? If he's not I would really like to know why not. Anyone know?

Marvin,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Christopher

The veneration of this improbable figure was sharply criticized by Erasmus in his Praise of Folly. Christopher's feast day was downgraded by the Vatican to a purely local commemoration in 1969 based on a lack of specific historical evidence regarding the details of his life. Contrary to popular belief, he was not "de-canonized" or declared not to be a saint. He is still considered to be a saint in the Catholic Church.

I believe in God (or some form of God) but my soul really isn't anyone else's business-that's between me and whatever I chose to call God. And don't get me started on the Mormons...

Mhoram you're not preaching hate...this is probably just some form of website miscommunication. It kinda sucks when you can't talk face to face...

Perhaps it's time to remember that religion is one of the three taboo topics never to be mentioned in polite company - right up there with sex and politics.
But really, if you can't talk about that, all you're left with are sports, weather, and latest dumbass Paris Hilton sightings.

Sigh... would that we could all hold our beliefs firmly enough that they could be shaken more vigorously?

[No sarcasm intended - I'm not casting stones here... I occasionally pretend not to be home when the JWs come a knocking. How's that for staunch Catholic?]

dw

Lord Mhoram wrote:Don't give yourself too much credit there, Cail. I wasn't talking about you. But it's nice to know that when I try to have a discussion on faith, you take everything personally, and resort to insults and saying I preach hate. I will remember that.

I haven't taken a thing personally, nor have I insulted you.

I will make the observation that I believe you are closed-minded when it comes to Christianity and people of faith.

I'll keep praying for you though.

I give up.

How can I argue with such a thoughtful and sincere person?

It's the spirit of brotherly love mon, praise Jah!

The same way I can continue to argue with someone who is overtly and vehemently opposed to religion.

Where's the love?

Funny, but I was going to ask the same question.

I find it incomprehensible that non-believers get so worked up about what people of faith believe.

In my experience the opposite is true as well.

So knock it off...

According to a local radio talk show I was just listening to the stereotypical perception of an atheist is that they believe that anyone who follows a religion is delusional (I'd like to think some of them a bit more openminded)-I don't believe in religion for myself-I don't need crosses and saviours or anybody praying for me. I do believe in love and a loving creative intelligence--who knows what it is-it doesn't matter.

I refuse to impose my beliefs, but if someone asks me in person, I will share, not protheletize but share. If it's not heart to heart and in person it means nothing. I have some radical beliefs-but, usually, at the end of all things even Christians think I have a very Christian way of looking at things-I know, isn't it infuriating?

Later on a real evangelist came on the talk show and said to the host, "You're a Catholic, right?" and the host said, "Well, I was raised Catholic but that doesn't mean..", "Then you don't understand how your faith works, do you?" and the host said, "You're right, I'm an idiot." and hung up on the guy. I'm still chuckling

Cail wrote:If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop praying for you.

ROTFLMAO!

Sorry, I know that was serious, but I found it pretty amusing.

Damn, I can't believe this has run to 4 pages overnight. You go ahead and pray for me all you want Cail. Never know, I might need all the credit I can get. (Sincerely though, I'm touched, really I am.)

I'm pretty much of the opinion of EL myself. And Cyberweez come to think of it. If you don't believe that they're praying to a valid entity, what should it matter to you?

I think that the real issue here is that this appears to single out the Jews, and by implication say that their belief is invalid.

Now of course, any Christian should feel that way about any other belief (including other branches of christianity it seems). It's just perhaps a little impolite to single out the Jews. Yes, it is arrogant too. But arrogance is an inevitable side-effect of believing that your belief is the one true belief.

So yes, I can see how it would be a little offensive to Jews in particular, but only for that reason. If the line read "all unbelievers" instead of "Jews" then I don't think there would be any outcry at all really. It's the perception of insult.

So? It leads to a worsening Judeao-Catholic relationship.

*shrug*

Who does that harm? Is there any more harm or offense when the mullah calls for the conversion of all infidels? 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Y'know, once upon a time I woulda been outraged by the effrontery (to Jews) by the Christians for having such a prayer. But I've come to realise that it doesn't matter a damn either way, so I can no longer work up the moral indignation required.

The whole premise of any religion is that it is right, so by definition, everybody else must be wrong. Not being religious, my premise must be the reverse. But as Cail points out, once you think they're wrong, what the hell difference does it make in pointing out all those flaws?

Is the prayer a calculated insult to Jews? I doubt it like hell. So, they're offended? *shrug* Life is offensive. If it doesn't hurt you quantifiably, it's all in your head anyway.

(If I was Jewish, I'd find it quite funny: "These crazy Christians..." )

From what I can see, and again as Cail points out, the intentions are for this to help the Jews (in that nebulous way that prayer is supposed affect the world), not to harm them. If we're strict about it in fact, it's supposed to preserve them from the harm that comes by not being Catholic.

So while I can totally see why Jews might be offended by it, I think they're just reacting emotionally to it.

--A

Don't forget the political aspect of this. Jews can't sit around and let the world think that they have no issue with this 'reversion' (or however you choose to look at it). Silence is assent - which is why it was so important for many countries of the world to publicly denounce the recent public stoning in Iran as barbaric.
If they didn't take public issue with it, it's the same as giving permission to do more.
Now, whether they are deeply offended, or merely maintaining public posturing, I have no idea...

dw

Good point DW. Could be more of a "better say something" type of issue than anything else.

--A

Avatar wrote:The whole premise of any religion is that it is right, so by definition, everybody else must be wrong.

Here's what I consider the best quote about religion:

Eknath Easwaran wrote:First, however, the non-Hindu faces a third obstacle: the multiplicity of names used for aspects of God. From the earliest times, Hinduism has proclaimed one God while accommodating worship of him (or her, for to millions God is the Divine Mother) in many different names. "Truth is one," says a famous verse of the Rig Veda; "men call it by various names." A monastic devotee might find that Shiva embodies the austere detachment he seeks; a devotee who wants to live "in the world," partaking of its innocent pleasures but devoted to service of his fellow creatures, might find in Krishna the perfect incarnation of his ideals. In every case, this clothing of the Infinite in human form serves to focus a devotee's love and to provide an inspiring ideal. But whatever form is worshipped, it is only an aspect of the same one God.

Some religions do seem to say that all others must be wrong. Some religions - the sacred texts - don't say that, but some followers insist on it anyway. I like the attitude that Easwaran talks about, and that the Unitarian Universalists I've known have had. (I've heard that other UU's are quite different, although I don't understand why someone would join UU if they are.)

Marvin wrote:Well, from what I understand belief in a religion is absolute. There isn't any room for doubt. To then expect those people to not try and convince others, through whatever means(especially concerning something as harmless as prayer), of the validity of their beliefs seems weird. Especially when believers think the consequence of you not converting is eternal damnation.

Ahhh. I see what you meant.

I don't necessarily EXPECT any different from people who believe absolutely in a religion, but in my eyes, it doesn't make it any less arrogant.

Cail wrote:You guys must be a barrel of laughs around gift-giving holidays.....

If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make to you that I'm praying for you, and why do you automatically ascribe negative characteristics to that?

Edit-The answer, I think, is that your unbelief is so important to you that you simply cannot tolerate the fact that other people believe in God and have faith. You then become guilty of the same intolerance that you accuse people of faith of having.

I've never said that I don't believe in a God, or that I am intolerant of people who believe absolutely in a God.

I have simply stated that I think it's arrogant to pray for someone to change their mind. I say, let people be who THEY want to be.

And my belief that it is arrogant is NOT synonymous with anger or hate so theres no further reason to compare them. I think it would be accurate to say that everyone at one time or another could be considered arrogant. It has nothing to do with either negative emotions.