hile troy not leaving

Post by **Landwaster** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:40 pm

you ARE quick!

Post by **Skyweir** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:33 pm

Landwaster wrote:wild magic needs a watchdog presence ensuring that its handled wisely and for the right ends. And a levy.

needs a watchdog presence?? who would you say plays this role??

Do you think the Creator made TC the watchdog in trust? The Creator cant be that watchdog .. as he refused to intervene regardless of the outcome .. he left his creation to play out which ever way it played out ..

TC was left with a seudo-mandate of saving or damning .. a lot of power in the hands of one man

Landwaster wrote:Did you get that quote from the pages on your walls or from the tabulated books on your floor?

Fist&Faith wrote:I have that one tattooed on my inner, right thigh.

LOL .. the mind boggles at the thought of where the rest of the 6 books are tattooed

.. must make some chapters and verse difficult to access ..

unless you are a proficient yoga meister

Post by **Ylva Kresh** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:00 pm

But: if it was ONLY the creator that chose to send covenant to the Land, why did he do it in the first place? Is it not very risky to send white gold to the land? Did he think the Lands need so extremely huge that there was no other choice? Then I think he should have done something before all went so unpleasently foul under the sunbane. But perhaps you cannot argue like that with the creator ?

Post by **Landwaster** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:02 pm

Mr Creator, men have had a meeting ... and we don't think you're pulling your weight. Your decision-making has been called into question. Either do your job or we'll go and find someone who can.

Post by **Skyweir** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:16 pm

LOL ..

<has no clue what that was about

but hey?? .. what ever the Creator dudes say .. i guess goes

Post by **Furls Fire** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:52 am

I believe that the creator chose Covenant because of his leprosy, his bitterness, his despair. Covenant is a MESS. He knows the value of beauty. The Creator chose Covenant because of all these things. He chose wisely. Yes, there was great risk, because Covenant ultimately had the power to destroy everything. And almost did at the end of the second chrons. It was only Foul's madness that saved the Land and the Arch of Time from Covenant's decision to sacrifice the ring and himself to Foul.

I think back to the letter the Creator gave Covenant outside of Bell Telephone. "The Fundemental Question of Ethics."

A real man--real in all the ways that we recognize as real--finds himself suddenly abstracted from the world and deposited in a physical situation which could not possibly exist: sounds have aroma, smells have color and depth, sights have texture, touches have pitch and timbre. There he is informed by a disembodied voice that he has been brought to that place as a champion for his world. He must fight to the death in single combat against a champion from another world. If he is defeated, he will die, and his world--the real world--will be destroyed because it lacks the inner strength to survive.

The man refuses to believe that what he is told is true. He asserts that he is either dreaming or hallucinating, and declines to be put in the false position of fighting to the death where no "real" danger exists. He is implacable in his determination to disbelieve his apparent situation, and does not defend himself when he is attacked by the champion of the other world.

Question: is the man's behavior courageous or cowardly? This is the fundamental question of ethics.

The Creator believed that Covenant would fall in love with the Land. And would want to save it. Whether he believed in it or not.

The wild magic is just that...wild. It has no boundaries, no law, no limits. When Foul seduced Drool to bring white gold to the Land, the Creator knew he had to act, not by putting his hand thru the Arch, because that would tear apart the universe. So, he directed the summoning of white gold to Covenant. Because he believed that Covenant knew enough about despair and grief and loss to know what beauty and truth was. And he would ulitmately want to save The Land for him.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:55 am

brilliant .. what she said

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:59 pm

Yes, extremely well said, Fire!

And here's another aspect of the Creator's decision:

"What made you think I wouldn't just collapse - wouldn't give up in despair?"

The voice replied promptly. "Despair is an emotion like any other. It is the habit of despair which damns, not the despair itself. You were a man already acquainted with habit and despair - with the Law which both saves and damns. Your knowledge of your illness made you wise."

And isn't "Despair is an emotion like any other. It is the habit of despair which damns, not the despair itself" an amazing couple of sentences????????

Post by **Furls Fire** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:38 pm

YES! and so is..

Your knowledge of your illness made you wise.

When I first read that, I went WHOA...so TRUE!

Post by **Landwaster** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:47 pm

Cool so TC was a handy acquisition to the fight because he'd already been right into the pit of self-hate. Of course Foul loved to instil self-hate as a means of assisting his victory, so TC was a powerful tool having already been vaccinated against this vulnerability.

TC has stuff you can't get from a Windows Security Update, that's a lead pipe cinch!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:48 pm

Absolutely!! The Creator put all his money on the leper who was intimately familiar with despair, because he thought it made Covenant less likely to despair again! He knew, from experience, how to get over despair, and not explode from it.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:50 pm

He picked Linden for the same reasons. She too knew alot about despair.

Hile Troy was just an accident...

Post by **Landwaster** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:52 pm

Or at the very least how to continue to function effectively despite despair.

(dictionary definition of "despite" in that case)

Post by **Furls Fire** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:53 pm

YES!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:23 pm

There is one more tiny little thing in relation to "why the Creator chose Covenant"...

Beggar: "Give ... I have warned you"
Covenant: takes off the ring and drops it in the bowl. "That's worth more than a few coins"

The fact that he GAVE away the white gold in the first place showed sacrifice. Later we read that Covenant hold on to the ring because it was his only remaining link with Joan. But that single act of sacrifice is perhaps one of the reasons the creator chose Covenant...along with his familiarity with dispair and love for beauty and (as pointed out) his remaining capacity for compassion and pity.

I'm sure that the Creator knew there were hundreds upon thousands of others who wore white gold wedding bands and rings but how many of them would've just given it to an old beggar carrying a message of warning.

p.s. someone e-mail me or msg me off board about how to utilize the quote... I tried but managed to quote the entire message... grr grr.. I'm not that computer savvy.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:50 pm

I think I always assumed that the Creator watched everyone, and when the time came that he needed someone to go to the Land, he chose Covenant based on what he had been observing all along, then visited as the beggar. It had never occurred to me that the meeting with the beggar was the test, and that the Creator perhaps tested lots of others in similar ways at the same time.

guest,
When you hit Quote, it throws that entire post into the quote format. You have to delete the parts you don't want. But however you get it in there, everything between [*quote] (remove the *) and [/quote] will go into the quote format.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:20 am

some1 said about hile troy being an accident... dont u think that a blind man knows enough about dispair to at least tail covenant... the creator knew that he would regain his sight, but being all knowing he would also know that he would lose it again...

does this mean that the creator wanted HT to suffer or does it just mean that simply, he lost his sight once, he can lose it again... dispair was not a factor for HT...

HT would have been a perfect stategic selection by the creator... altho Quann (or however u spell it) was a good leader, the warward needed an edge. this edge, HT had... a military stratagist that could formulate plans and situations while having no sight to guide him.

now it may just be me, but a man who has seen battle thru the eyes of a blind man would be a hell of alot more experienced than a man who had always been able to see.

HT's blindness is his weakness but at the same time it is his utmost strength... after all, what is dispair to a blind man... if he died he wouldn't see anything more than he did, and if he lives he still cant see. the power of the individual is where you last look for it, foul may have had a hand in HT's summoning, but was he wise enough to think "wait... this guy knows how to lead an army, that cant b good..."

i personally think that lord foul was involved in the summoning of HT but didn't look past his disablility, where as the creator looked inside him and knew he could aid the land.

thats my 2 cents... thoughts? comments? send them to my lawyer

lol

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:15 am

good point about Hile Troy Forestaal! it is true even he would surely have been aqcuainted with despair .. or you'd think so

.. not only being blind but also disfigured .. wasnt he supposed to have not had eye sockets .. or eye balls at all?? i forget now ..

anyway .. good point .. as for HT's capacity as a military strategist .. we only have his word for that .. and it may well be true .. but he never struck me as a particularly brilliant military tacitian

LOL

but then again .. it was a whole new environment for HT .. and a whole new kind of enemy

Post by **phoebe** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:48 pm

HT was sooo not an accident.........
True, Troy knew despair. It may not have been affecting his life as pronouncedly as Covenant’s despair was his, and I guess that's not only him coping with it well - it never would have. Yes, Troy knew how to deal with his shortcoming but being blind is one thing; all the pain and suffering and exile Covenant went through is something different. I think his ability to cope with despair is only part of the reason Troy was chosen. His blindness itself probably played the larger part.
Also, I do agree there would have been greater military strategists around, but not many that could have coped with guiding a large army soon after being sprayed in the face with green acid-blood and losing your sight... For Troy (after the initial shock and intense dissapointment, of course) it would have been... business as usual. Well, he hadn't forgotten what it was like, had he?
Hile Troy was exceedingly able to fall in love with the land. He gained something that he had undoubtedly longed for and didn’t want to lose. He was willing to make any sacrifices to defend Elena and the people of the land and ultimately he sacrificed his human life. Ok, so he didn’t know Caerroil was going to turn him into A TREE (but there’s another question.. would Troy have chosen to do the selfless thing...)

Covenant had resigned to the fact that he wouldn’t get his feeling back because he knew he had to to survive, but Troy had probably yearned to be able to see... You think? And when he got this he wasn't going to let it go for anything. Thus, his determination to protect the land. Perfect, thinks the Creator...??

edit=post doesn't make sense

Post by **Furls Fire** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:18 am

When I said that Hile Troy was an "accident" I meant that he wasn't "chosen" by the creator. Hile Troy came to the Land when Atarian was trying to get Covenant.

Once he was there, his contributions were essential to the Land. And not the least of which was becoming Caer-Caveral and defending Morinmoss and eventually holding Andelain free of the Sunbane.

The "accident" was not his. It was Atarian's

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

hile troy not leaving

just have to point out...