Is a wealthy government or a poor government more just?

[Prebe]

The problem with shame being that it is every bit as subjective as morality.

[Avatar]

Maybe there's something to that...I'm not sure. It's not that I care what other people think about what I do, it's what I think about what I do. In other words, if I do something "wrong" then I'm ashamed of myself. Wrong, of course, by my own fairly subjective standards. *shrug*

Is it because of what we're inculcated to accept is expected of us? Maybe partly...but then, why can I discard some of those "ideals" and yet consider others to be important?

--A

[Cail]

Of course it is, but we accept cultural mores without much question.

The issue is (I think, too many similar threads) whether or not any mores are universal. They aren't, but there are some generally accepted practices in most, if not all, cultures.

Take literacy, for example. There's no shame in being an adult illiterate. It's the education system's fault. It's the parent's fault. It's the neighborhoods. It's hip-hop culture.

None of those things make a bit of difference to the fact that if you can't read or write, you're not going to get a job. None of those things (or the government) are going to (or should) take care of you because you can't read.

By normalizing illiteracy (or teen pregnancy, or drug abuse, or whatever) and supplying sanctioned excuses, you're excusing all personal responsibility for not only that condition, but for personal betterment as well.

[Avatar]

But how would you make something shameful? Surely the only way's gotta be starting with the education and upbringing?

But I think we have to use a different example...I think there is still shame in adult illiteracy, and that's why not enough people try and learn later. And of course, over here, much poor education can be laid at the feet of the old education system. (And the new for that matter, but that's a different thread. )

Just saw a thing on the news yesterday about a 76-yr old man who entered the first grade to keep a promise to his long-dead mother that he would learn to read and write. (Anyway, different environment, I get what you're saying, hence my first paragraph.)

(As for merging the threads, do it if you want...might confuse things a bit (more) though. )

--A

[emotional leper]

Cail, there are human universals. There is always marriage. There is always family. There are always incest taboos. There is always a system for defining right and wrong. And there is always a system of belief for working out how the universe works, whether it is religion or science.

[Cail]

Cail, there are human universals. There is always marriage. There is always family. There are always incest taboos. There is always a system for defining right and wrong. And there is always a system of belief for working out how the universe works, whether it is religion or science.

Show me a single ideal that is universally accepted by all, and has been throughout history. Certainly not the definitions of marriage, family, or taboo.

[storm]

Cail, there are human universals. There is always marriage. There is always family. There are always incest taboos. There is always a system for defining right and wrong. And there is always a system of belief for working out how the universe works, whether it is religion or science.

Would you mind providing your personal definition of a universal principle...the stuff you list is more categorically universal by my definition, so maybe you could elaborate on how you are defining the context.

The idea of marriage may be universally applied, but there is always differences in context, whether impacted by religiosity or cultural norms. Family in and of itself is not a moral construct, its simply a biological unit, humans are social creatures...there are families of other social animals too, meercats come to mind. Incest is definitely not a universal, look at lineages from royal lines in medieval europe, a good bit of incest going on there. Now there are certainly cultures in which incest is taboo, but its not across the board.

Systems of right and wrong are in place, but the definitions are not always universals. I would say murder, rape, theft are always punished.

Systems of belief are definitely not universal, mankind's quest for understanding is universal.

[Avatar]

Good post. I agree. While some concepts may be universal as in they exist in all societies, the application and definition of those concepts, or their specifics, are varied indeed.

--A

[Cail]

That's my point. We can all put forth ideas which seem common, but the definitions of those concepts are many and varied.

[Avatar]

Exactly. Every society has, as one of it's rules, don't kill people. But the rule is purely internal...don't kill people of our society. Because hell, everybody knows that people outside of our society aren't really people anyway. Not like you and me.

--A

[Cail]

Oh it goes well beyond that Av. You can kill someone who's threatening you, taking your stuff, or hurting a loved one. Hell, we can even define what makes a person to allow things like abortion, the death penalty, and the abuse/killing of slaves.

[Avatar]

Good point. And lets not forget torture and "enemy combatants." The world is full of examples where any particular "moral" or standard can be set aside with the correct justification.

Even our rights can be ignored by our own country if a court finds it reasonable and justifiable to do so.

Yep, the rules in place are the ones that suit the people who can exert force. Always loved that saying, "Two kinds of people laugh at the law, those who break them, and those who make them."

That's sorta my point I guess. If "killing people is bad" was a universal standard, then nobody would kill people.

--A

[emotional leper]

Cail, I'm going to believe Ph. D.'s in Anthropology over you. Go get an Anthropology textbook if you want a refutation.

[Cail]

I'll put my sociology degree up against your opinion any day of the week.

Name me a single universal belief. Just one.

[emotional leper]

I'll put my sociology degree up against your opinion any day of the week.

Name me a single universal belief. Just one.

I'm sorry. That's not what you originally stated. You said 'Mores.' If you look up the definition of that, you'd find it means 'customs,' cuming from the Latin word 'mores,' meaning 'customs.'

Now. As to universal human customs. The following are universal human customs: All humans have marriage of one form or another, be it homo- or heterosexual monogomy, polyandry, polygyny, xenogamy or cenogamy. All humans have a system of beliefs that define their place in the universe.

[Cail]

And not a single one of those are universal. There is no universal definition of marriage. In fact, what one society calls "marriage" another would find contrary or harmful to their definition of "marriage".

So basically, no dice.

[Avatar]

Mores: social norms that provide the moral standards of a group or society and that are strictly enforced.

Anyway, while every culture may have a marriage custom, who, when, why and how you can marry depends entirely on the society.

--A

[Rawedge Rim]

I have to agree with Cail on this. There are no universal constants in human society, with the possible exception of the wish to procreate. There have been different definitions on what constitutes marraige, murder, theft, war, etc.

Not long ago in the US it was considered perfectly OK, if you came home and found your spouse engaging in sexual intercourse with someone else, to kill one or both of the parties. Now of course this will probably get you close to life in prison.

The "Church" used to consider it perfectly OK to kill someone immediately after converting them to Christianity, to prevent them from returning to their original religion, thereby guaranteeing them a place in heaven.

In various times of history, it has been considered OK to rape, plunder, and murder as long as it was the "enemies" of your people, which was just about everyone else in the world.

The legal age to marry off females has changed over, and has been as low as the single digits.

I know of no single constant societal norm in all of history that stayed consistent.

[Cail]

Even procreation isn't universal, as there are plenty of asexual people out there.

[Tjol]

I'll put my sociology degree up against your opinion any day of the week.

Name me a single universal belief. Just one.

FWIW, I find anthropology to be much closer to scientific process when compared with sociology. Sociology tends to apply opinion as if it were fact, without ever attempting to actually testing their opinion. Not to besmirch your degree, mind you, but between the two fields, I think anthropology is a more concrete school of study.