Kevin's Watch Religious Composition (Dec. '08)

[Fist and Faith]

OK, let's see... According to dictionary.com, an agnostic is

a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

An atheist is

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Truthfully, I don't know what I am. I don't deny or disbelieve; I just don't believe. I don't claim to know that there isn't any God. On what would I base that assertion? I don't know that there isn't a supreme being, I just haven't seen evidence supporting one's existence. I don't think I'm an atheist.

OTOH, I don't think I'm an agnostic, because I don't think such things are unknowable. Maybe they are; maybe they aren't. It's just that I don't know. It's possible that I will learn something some day that convinces me one way or the other.

[Dromond]

OK, let's see... According to dictionary.com, an agnostic is

a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

An atheist is

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Truthfully, I don't know what I am. I don't deny or disbelieve; I just don't believe. I don't claim to know that there isn't any God. On what would I base that assertion? I don't know that there isn't a supreme being, I just haven't seen evidence supporting one's existence. I don't think I'm an atheist.

OTOH, I don't think I'm an agnostic, because I don't think such things are unknowable. Maybe they are; maybe they aren't. It's just that I don't know. It's possible that I will learn something some day that convinces me one way or the other.

This is an interesting blog on the issue, Fist. I really enjoy this Lady's website:
www.thehappyheretic.com/06-01.htm

[Zarathustra]

Honestly, I don't care how you group the poll options. I was just joking about the "rivalry" between Christians and non-believers on the Watch.

But this is an interesting question, now that you all have started debating it. Perhaps it needs its own thread. Richard Dawkins describes it more as a continuum, focusing on how people behave in practice rather than dictionary definitions. On a scale from 1 to 7:

1: Strong theist. 100% possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know"
2: Very high probability 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God '
3: Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism.
4: Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic.
5: Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism.
6: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist.
7: Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.

Before reading the God Delusion, I considered myself an agnostic--so much so that I didn't even know how to rank myself on this scale. I was agnostic about my agnosticism. But now, I (as well as Dawkins) fall somewhere around 6. Maybe 5.5.

I see agnosticism as not having a belief (noncommittal), and atheism as having a definite belief (no god). I don't really see agnosticism as "exactly balanced" between theism and atheism. How could that be? I don't think that kind of perfect balance between opposites exists in many humans. Rather, I see agnosticism as a fluctuating position where (for instance) you can see the merits of logical arguments against god, but still have a nagging emotional intuition that there could be Something More. You might be certain that a particular god is ridiculous (like Odin), but still think that another conception might fit the bill. For myself, I'm very confident that the Christian god is a myth, but I leave open the possibility that a larger reality might exist within the natural mechanisms of this existence. So in some debates (for instance, with Christians), I come off as extremely atheist. Then in other contexts, I come off as a mystic.

[Menolly]

hmm...
I guess I would classify myself at 2.3 - 3.0 on that scale.

[Cybrweez]

Still a Christian majority I see.

--A

that's why I was hesitant. Many who said Christian, also mentioned "but".

[Avatar]

I see agnosticism as not having a belief (noncommittal), and atheism as having a definite belief (no god).

I've always seen it as the reverse...but then I've never applied Fists definition to it either. I've tended to see it as agnostics believe that there is probably something, while atheists have no "spiritual" beliefs.

I figure I rate at least a 6 or 6.5 on that scale. The only reason it's no 7 is because I try and avoid dogmatic positions.

Good point Weez, and it raises an interesting question...at what point do we draw the line?...as Malik said, "christian" lumps in everybody from the orthodox to the fundamentalist evangelical...most of who feel that the others aren't christian at all.

Can you still call yourself christian if you disagree withj the churches stance on birthcontrol, or homosexuality for example? Surely a person doesn't get to set the rules they like and ignore the rest?

--A

[Menolly]

lf christian if you disagree withj the churches stance on birthcontrol, or homosexuality for example? Surely a person doesn't get to set the rules they like and ignore the rest?

--A

Ha!
It's what we do in Judaism, to the point that the First Commandment, "I am the L-rd, thy G-d," is totally rejected by Humanistic Judaism.

[aliantha]

Can you still call yourself christian if you disagree withj the churches stance on birthcontrol, or homosexuality for example? Surely a person doesn't get to set the rules they like and ignore the rest?

If you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and died and was reborn, and will come again, then you're Christian. The rest of it is nitpicking.

I don't know *where* the hell I'd put myself on Dawkins' scale, since it's geared toward Judeo-Christians and I ain't one. If you generalize it to belief in divinity in general -- i.e., gods as opposed to God -- then I guess I'm at about a 2.

Turiya, I *loved* your post and I totally agree with you. And note that I suggested to Rus a couple of weeks ago that to Pagans, miracles look like magic. (He didn't respond. )

[Reisheiruhime]

hehe... thankies! unfortunately, after living in the deep south for so long, I've become kinda hesitant to reveal my thoughts on such matters, even in the various circles I've visited ("circles" consisting of a few emo kids who meet at TacoBell sometimes "near" the full moon... *shudder* poor emo kids... )

The funny thing is, at my school there's a kid named Zach who goes around with a bible in his back pocket and frequently uses it to thump other people who won't beat the holy snot out of him (*cough* not me *cough* i've opened up several cans of heathen whup-ass on him *cough*) He's super obnoxious and i find myself wondering is his God is pleased with him. I don't think He would be. Wasn't the Lord all about treating others with kindness and acting with humble dignity? At what point did whacking someone with a bible become humble dignity? I also find myself wondering if I shouldn't ask his God to open his sheep's eyes to what a total jerk he's being...

(Am I weird for accepting the Christian God into my idea of the Universe? I mean, if there can be a Flying Spaghetti Monster (which, by the amount of people adding to the idea, has now been created... There's a book by a fellow named Konstantinos which outlines how a group of spiritualists in the 19th century created a creature named Phillip, sort of like a ghost... Pretty freaky... The same can be done for "gods" and "demons" and "angels"... like knitting together a magical scarf of psychic power wow that ramble took like five minutes...) then surely there can be room for Jesus at the poker table my Group sits at, deciding what they're going to do to mess things up/make me laugh hysterically/bring me unutterably joy/or just make it all blah... Omnipotence begets extreme boredom, I think. They've gotta be bored to listen to my ranting and swearing under my breath all the time.

I think there's a slight degree of psychosis mixed in there with my personal belief system, just enough to make it to where I have to write copious amounts of stories in which my Pantheon acts out Dane Cook bits... (Zeus: as a large, potbellied, toga-clad Greek man with flowing white hair and beard "Get back in the fiery water!" and did i mention that said large man is in a yellow duckie float? Am I the only one that finds that hilarious to think about?

Come to think of it, how much of religion today is psychosis? I mean, I understand if you want to trust your God enough to pick up a venomous snake and have your God protect you, but do you really need your God to do this at the frenzied parties you call church meetings? Why not save that for when the snake is actually going to attack someone? I'm sure your God would help you then, after all then is when you're really putting all your faith in Him. Imagine the trouble that could have been circumvented if Thomas Covenant had been into snake handling? "Oh, don't worry little girl, it's cool, see, Jesus can make the bad rattler into a sweet, angelic little - OW! NOOO! Crap..gurrgleurrg..." *twitch twitch jerk*

I'm gonna quit now. I'm sure there's something morally wrong with picturing that. Repeatedly.

[lucimay]

hehe... thankies! unfortunately, after living in the deep south for so long, I've become kinda hesitant to reveal my thoughts on such matters, even in the various circles I've visited ("circles" consisting of a few emo kids who meet at TacoBell sometimes "near" the full moon... *shudder* poor emo kids... )

man, some things never change. them kids was all hangin out at the taco tico on village dr when i lived in lexington.

The funny thing is, at my school there's a kid named Zach who goes around with a bible in his back pocket and frequently uses it to thump other people who won't beat the holy snot out of him (*cough* not me *cough* i've opened up several cans of heathen whup-ass on him *cough*) He's super obnoxious and i find myself wondering is his God is pleased with him. I don't think He would be. Wasn't the Lord all about treating others with kindness and acting with humble dignity? At what point did whacking someone with a bible become humble dignity? I also find myself wondering if I shouldn't ask his God to open his sheep's eyes to what a total jerk he's being...

i b'lieve you've got the right of it, TF.

(Am I weird for accepting the Christian God into my idea of the Universe? ...surely there can be room for Jesus at the poker table my Group sits at,...

yes yer weird but thats neither here nor there! the christian god is definitely in the universe. the big question is, what kinda hand is he holdin?

Come to think of it, how much of religion today is psychosis? I mean, I understand if you want to trust your God enough to pick up a venomous snake and have your God protect you, but do you really need your God to do this at the frenzied parties you call church meetings? Why not save that for when the snake is actually going to attack someone? I'm sure your God would help you then, after all then is when you're really putting all your faith in Him. Imagine the trouble that could have been circumvented if Thomas Covenant had been into snake handling? "Oh, don't worry little girl, it's cool, see, Jesus can make the bad rattler into a sweet, angelic little - OW! NOOO! Crap..gurrgleurrg..." *twitch twitch jerk*

better, i think, to ask, what kind of GOD wants his followers to do this?

of course, as we all know, followers don't always behave the way you'd like them to.

erikson postulates (in a conversation btwn characters) that a silent god might mean that god has died. and that god might have died when the first drop of blood was spilled in its name.

thats my tangent for the night.

[Fist and Faith]

If you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and died and was reborn, and will come again, then you're Christian. The rest of it is nitpicking.

As I've said before, for what it's worth coming from me, I can only see any sense in defining it as Follower of Christ. Obviously, that's going to make a whole lot of people unhappy. This is from Sagan's Contact:

"I was struck by one or two things you said this morning. You called yourself a Christian. May I ask? In what sense are you a Christian?"

"You know, this wasn't the job description when I accepted the directorship of the Argus Project." She said this lightly. "I'm a Christian in the sense that I find Jesus Christ to be an admirable historical figure. I think the Sermon on the Mount is one of the greatest ethical statements and one of the best speeches in history. I think that `Love your enemy' might even be the long-shot solution to the problem of nuclear war. I wish he was alive today. It would benefit everybody on the planet. But I think Jesus was only a man. A great man, a brave man, a man with insight into unpopular truths. But I don't think he was God or the son of God or the grandnephew of God."

-If Christ's message was love, then I might be a Christian. (Sometimes a good one; sometimes not as good. ) Mind you, I don't attempt to confuse the issue by claiming I am, I'm just saying definitions can be stretched.
-If Christ's message was something else, the Ku Klux Klan might be Christians. And they certainly claim to be.
-I know a woman who says you are not a Christian if you do not believe in (among other things) the Trinity. Sheesh, seems a bit much, since I've never heard of Christ preaching about the Trinity.
-Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Christ was literally God in human form, so most others calling themselves Christians say Witnesses are not. Beats me; do they try to live by Christ's message?

If we let Christians define the term, then there's probably only several thousand Christians in the world, and who those several thousand are depends on who you ask. OTOH, it seems silly to let those of us who certainly aren't Christians define it. Ah, the crazy nature of humanity, eh?

[aliantha]

I agree with your tangent, Luci.

If we let Christians define the term, then there's probably only several thousand Christians in the world, and who those several thousand are depends on who you ask. OTOH, it seems silly to let those of us who certainly aren't Christians define it. Ah, the crazy nature of humanity, eh?

Well, but those of us on the outside have the broader view, if you will. What distinguishes Christianity, as a (sort of) family of religions, from all other families of religions? Christians all gots Jesus. That really is their defining characteristic. I was only half-kidding when I said the rest of it was nitpicking. (This, btw, is why I don't get Jews for Jesus. Dude, you can live by any dietary laws you like, but if you believe Jesus was the Son of God, you ain't of the Jewish religion.)

And one can certainly live by Jesus' tenets -- i.e., live a moral life -- and not be a Christian.

[Wyldewode]

And one can certainly live by Jesus' tenets -- i.e., live a moral life -- and not be a Christian.

This is certainly true. So if Christians say God=love, and you love a person (the really pure kind where you don't think of yourself first), doesn't that mean that you know the God of the Christians? It's something to think about. . . at least in my book.

[Cybrweez]

This is certainly true. So if Christians say God=love, and you love a person (the really pure kind where you don't think of yourself first), doesn't that mean that you know the God of the Christians? It's something to think about. . . at least in my book.

Sure, I don't see why not. He's not a secret. A lot of people know the God of the Christians, but again, that wouldn't make them Christians.

And to clear up, I wasn't casting doubt on anyone's votes. I was pointing out that some voted Christian, and added their own 'buts'. Like, I voted atheist, b/c I grew up never talking about God in my family, but I think that something created all this.

So, like so many things, I don't think the poll is so black and white, and its sketchy to use it as proof of any type of majority.

[Avatar]

the christian god is definitely in the universe. the big question is, what kinda hand is he holdin?

It doesn't matter, the pot is infinite, the cards are all blank and the dealer makes up the rules as he goes along.

--A

[The Laughing Man]

infinite pot......I like that idea.....

[Dromond]

infinite pot......I like that idea.....

[Avatar]

--A

[Cagliostro]

Javacrucian

[Reisheiruhime]

It doesn't matter, the pot is infinite, the cards are all blank and the dealer makes up the rules as he goes along.

--A

Question: who's the dealer?