Kevin's Watch

Nice to have you on board, Murrin! This is one of the most interesting fantasy discussions I've had in a long while. You're right, this series really gets you thinking.

I can't give you any help on your theories. You're dealing with some of the big questions, which aren't answered yet. But it's fun to speculate. That's pretty much what we've been doing since finishing.

I give page numbers in my posts, so feel free to read along here as you reach those pages in the book. I think you'll avoid spoilers that way.

(Two chapters in, just met Mimara... Rambling below...)

One of the many things that exhilarates me about Bakker, odd as it might seem: his characters are all so fucked up. So human.

Esmenet is a broken woman, has been for most of her life. And despite anything Kellhus has done for her, she hasn't changed. She found Mimara, and just made things worse for both of them. Mimara, it seems, is just as broken as she is, and Esmi trying to take her back has just brought it all up to the surface. She seems bitter, and angry. Probably seeking revenge, even if she doesn't know who she wants revenge against.


Mimara, Achamian, Cnaiur, are the kind of elements that Kellhus can't have seen coming. However much he may know them, they still manage to surprise him; they aren't accounted for by his Thousandfold Thought. Akka dwells on cause and effect in the second chapter, on how things progress from one event to another, inevitably. Mimara see it, when she looks at him and sees, despite him, despite the years staying away from it, that he will fall back into the role he has in the legends about him. Because of her - because of events set in motion long before Kellhus ever left Ishual.

Kellhus did not anticipate Cnaiur revealing his secrets to Achamian, and to the Consult. He did not anticipate Achamian's repudiation of him. And I don't think he will anticipate Mimara or he events she'll set in motion (he may have known Esmi would look for her, but how could he have known she would be a witch?).

A minor theme in this chapter, but a major one of the series at large, determinism. Not one of these people is in control of their fates. Not even Kellhus, who has more control over the course of events than any other person could imagine. There is too much of what came before for one man to perceive all of what can come after.


The simple act of a woman, starving, selling her child, years before any of this began, has shaped most of what has happened to Kellhus since he arrived in the Three Seas, and will continue to influence his fate right until the end.



I'd comment of the "revelation" that Seswatha may have been Nau-Cayuti's father, but that's been something I've taken for granted at least since the Encyclopaedic Glossary.

Good stuff there Murrin. I can't wait till you get into the meat of the book so we can begin to toss around some of the larger issues we've been discussing here. I'm glad you're enjoying it thus far.

bump. Muuuuuurrin!

Another chapter.

You have to wonder, this early in the story, what Kellhus wants from Esmenet. Maithanet and her discuss it a little, but don't shed much light. One of the questions being, why does Kellhus allow her to blame herself for the children? Despite focusing on his Dunyain blood, she still believes the flaw is that she is not good enough for it, when the real culprit is likely a thousand years of inbreeding in Kellhus' bloodline.

This chapter basically just introduces us to the rest of her family, and gives an idea of what her life has been like for the last twenty years. She must have some suspicion that she is just as much a vessel to be used now as she was when she was a whore. But it is always easier to ignore Akka and set aside the thought of what Kellhus sees when he looks at her.

The twins are an interesting idea. Two bodies, one soul, and the soul apparently broken between them when they were separated - Samarmas got the heart, and Kelmomas the intellect.

Finally, it seems from what little is here that Esmenet really has no suspicion that Kayutas may be Achamian's child. The description of him sounds like what we would expect of Kellhus' progeny, as well.

An interesting fantasy conceit, if this is really what Bakker is doing: God is real, and people really are judged as good or evil based upon his absolute and immutable standard. The world is looked upon with a judging eye and found wanting.

But I'm not convinced just yet that it's so simple as that. Why would Mimara see with this judging eye? What of the Thousand Gods, like Yatwer, what are they? Are we to accept that Sejenus and Kellhus truly are prophets of some kind? Maknig this a world where damnation is real puts some real weight behind the Inchoroi and Consult's purpose. But Bakker is keeping us in the dark as far as actual answers go, which makes sense really.

Can anyone remember which characters spoke in bold text in Prince of Nothing? Am I remembering right that there was something like that, from the Inchoroi's appearances perhaps?


When Kellhus hypnotised Achamian in TTT and unlocked his dreams, did he make Achamian forget he'd done it? I can't remember, but Achamian doesn't seem to know why they changed. Or maybe he just hasn't realised the significance of his first altered dream shortly after that event (with Anasurimbor speaking the No-Gods words).


Kelmomas is a strange little monster. Thinks of himself as like Kellhus, and shows a lot of his traits, but it's quite telling that his manipulations are so focused on gaining his mother's love. He's still a child, and perhaps being raised by a loving mother is the flaw that will break him, when viewed from the perspective of Dunyain.

The No-God's words were bolded. Have you finished yet Murrin? I'd like to know before I start throwing out what may be spoilers.

No, just three chapters further than the previous post (second Akka/Mimara chapter, first Yatwer Cult chapter, and Kelmomas' fratricide). Haven't read much the last week or so.

Ok. I'll wait before I engage you with some of my speculations and questions. I do enjoy the running commentary you're providing. Are you enjoying it thus far?

In TTT, thanks to Achamian's teachings, Kellhus got a glimpse of the Outside. It seemed to change him, and it is possibly he really did become convinced of his own godhood. I'm not so sure. So long as the Outside exists, then the Dunyain's goal cannot be achieved. So long as there is a connection to the outside, to the soul, then this Darkness That Comes Before rules mens actions before all else, and a self-moving soul is impossible. For a Dunyain to reach that final goal, the Inchoroi must succeed - the Outside must be closed, souls severed, leaving nothing to come before, and, almost coincidentally, no damnation for the sorcerors (the sinners of the mind) or for the Inchoroi (the sinners of the flesh)*.

I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, but it seems that Kellhus has been strongly influenced by his belief that the future shapes the past, rather than that the past shapes the future. Specifically, in TTT he seemed to buy that the world is following the Celmomanian prophecy - how could what will happen in the future cause the prophecy to originate according to dunyain principles of before-and-after?
((The appearance of an Anasurimbor during such momentous times seems to random to have come about by mere chance - for Moenghus to set out from the Dunyain and enter the real world at such a perfect time was too odd for Kellhus to dismiss it, I think.))

On newer things, Kellhus' family seems to be rather interesting. I've only glanced through the glossary and read the prologue, but from this I gather that Kellhus and Esmenet have had five children (since the first two sons are Cnaiur's and Achamian's),

I don't think we have any particular way to know whether Kayutas is Akka's son or Kellhus'. Because Bakker seems to speak of his resemblance to Kellhus, I have always assumed the latter. Moreover, I thought that Esmi actually removed some form of birth control when Kellhus seduced her (which she had used w/ akka and everyone else)?

Or were you speaking of Mimara? Akka himself seems to think Mimara was both born and gone before he met Esmi, but...?

Kellhus did not anticipate Cnaiur revealing his secrets to Achamian, and to the Consult. He did not anticipate Achamian's repudiation of him. And I don't think he will anticipate Mimara or he events she'll set in motion (he may have known Esmi would look for her, but how could he have known she would be a witch?).

We know that Mimara had entered into Esmi's household and actually been there long enough to meet with Kellhus. Also, she had tried to gain entry into the witch's school (can't remember the name) but Esmi wouldn't let her. Since the daughter in charge of the school (name?) is under Kellhus' supervision now, serving in the Great Ordeal, I'd be surprised if he didn't know about mimara's gift. Moreover, I'm pretty sure we learned during one of Esmi's narrations that she knew, at least generally, where Akka would be and lightened watches on where she expected Mimara to travel. I think it's safe to assume that any of esmi's actions are, consciously or not, learned of by Kellhus. And that if Esmi can predict her own daughter's actions, Kellhus would be able to. But that's just me *shrug*

Kelmomas is a strange little monster. Thinks of himself as like Kellhus, and shows a lot of his traits, but it's quite telling that his manipulations are so focused on gaining his mother's love. He's still a child, and perhaps being raised by a loving mother is the flaw that will break him, when viewed from the perspective of Dunyain.

I don't know if he actually loves Esmenet, or if this is just a survival trait. Kelmomamas is terrified of Kellhus "finding out" about him (isn't he even afraid of having kellhus look at him?) and he knows that the best way to keep "hidden" is to gain his mother's absolute trust and devotion.

If nothing else, Esmenet's dependence on him may mean that Kellhus would ignore small danger signs because he depends on esmenet's abilities substantially to govern momemn. If Kel can remove/kill maitha without getting discovered, this will make esmi even more necessary.

I wanna look over brinn's post again later when I have more time to make sense of it.

Regarding Kellhus knowing of Mimara, I meant in the larger scheme of things. When the Thousandfold Thought was conceived, he did not know. When he met Mimara and found out about it, he will have had to improvise.

Another thing he will be unaware of, of course, is the change in Achamian's dreams. Achamian will see things no-one but Seswatha knew - and perhaps more, as the dream in the latest chapter I read (Marrow; he dreams of the destruction of Sauglish) suggested he was seeing things Seswatha was not present to witness (Seswatha was presumably retreated within the Library, while Achamian remained outside). Achamian is an unpredictable element in his plan, as Cnaiur was (it all comes back to the mistake Moenghus made with Cnaiur...).

Murrin wrote:Regarding Kellhus knowing of Mimara, I meant in the larger scheme of things. When the Thousandfold Thought was conceived, he did not know. When he met Mimara and found out about it, he will have had to improvise.

Another thing he will be unaware of, of course, is the change in Achamian's dreams. Achamian will see things no-one but Seswatha knew - and perhaps more, as the dream in the latest chapter I read (Marrow; he dreams of the destruction of Sauglish) suggested he was seeing things Seswatha was not present to witness (Seswatha was presumably retreated within the Library, while Achamian remained outside). Achamian is an unpredictable element in his plan, as Cnaiur was (it all comes back to the mistake Moenghus made with Cnaiur...).

Basically I agree with you. I do think Kellhus might see far enough to realize that Akka will try to find the origins of the Dunyain; after all, Kellhus has presumably read the histories Akka wrote on the Holy War (pre-prologue was addressed to Kellhus) and knows that Akka has at least an inkling of his dunyain origins.

So although it's probably safe to assume none of the mandate are having the same dreams akka has (and Kellhus can't learn the locations akka is heading to except by tracking akka in some fashion), I think he (Kellhus) probably could foresee Achamian's overall goal. Especially if the prologue character who went to join/recruit ironsoul was an agent of kellhus.

And I thought he did know about Mimara's existence before the TTT was conceived. I think the relevant chain of events in WP goes something like this:
-Akka gets kidnapped by scarlet spires.
-Kellhus seduces Esmi, Esmi tells him about Mimara and how she sold her.
-Kellhus and Serwe are martyred except Kellhus actually survives, and in the process conceives the TTT.

So he's actually aware of Mimara's existence before this point. Was he aware that she was still alive? Doubtful, but I'm sure that he was just waiting for more resources before he tried a look for her (great deal of further emotional leverage on esmenet if nothing else).

Aware of her being one of the Few. That's what I meant.

Having met Kayutas now I'm still not convinced he's Kellhus' son. He looks like him, yes, but it also seemed from the way he was described that he is not exceptional like Kellhus, or Kelmomas. He seems human. It's hard to tell if the impression was accurate or not, because I only got an outside perspective from Sorweel, but the impression was of someone who has been raised somewhat like a Dunyain and is naturally intelligent, but who has to work for it - his acuity is learned, not innate.

Who's son would he be if not Kell's?

As I've said before, it's not entirely out of the question that Esmi was impregnated by Achamian toward the end of the Holy War. The resemblance to Kellhus is the one thing working against this idea atm. I may just be clinging to an outdated theory from when I read TTT.

We have a very high probability of Akka's journey coming to reflect that of Seswatha, and we know that Seswatha travelled into Golgotterath with Celmomas' first born who was in reality Seswatha's son. I suppose the real question is, does it matter? The fact of Akka's relationship with Esmi, and the influence of Seswatha's memories on Akka's own waking life, might be enough to carry the story in that direction without the actual blood tie.

Murrin wrote:We have a very high probability of Akka's journey coming to reflect that of Seswatha, and we know that Seswatha travelled into Golgotterath with Celmomas' first born who was in reality Seswatha's son. I suppose the real question is, does it matter? The fact of Akka's relationship with Esmi, and the influence of Seswatha's memories on Akka's own waking life, might be enough to carry the story in that direction without the actual blood tie.

Interesting. I never really considered that. It's an interesting theory and rather elegant but I'm not sure I've read anything yet that leads me to believe that Kayutas is Akka's kid. I'm re-reading the whole series and I'm currently just beginning TTT. I'm going to keep my eyes open for hints and clues.

P.S>
Anyone have any definitive proof that Moenghus is Cnaiur's son and not Kelhuss'. Just wondering.

I thought it was taken as given in TWP, but I can't say I'm certain. Kellhus' affair with Serwe started early.

I'm rereading the whole damn trilogy. Who is with me?

TJE is a lot better than the first book, by far. His writting really has improved. I'm on about page 90 of the trade paperback.

Lol. I beat you to it. I've already gone through the first two and I'm just finishing up the Thousandfold Thought. They are just about to attack Shimeh.

I've gotten a lot more out of my reread. There is so much going on that the first read was occasionally confusing and difficult to follow. The second is very enlightening.

I may just continue on to a third read of The Judging Eye to see if the new knowledge gleaned from my reread sheds any new light on the book.