Kevin's Watch

rdhopeca wrote:

wayfriend wrote:This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

My desire to see him convicted arose out of my opinion that he is guilty of the crime.

IMO, there's not enough reasonable evidence to have an opinion that he is guilty of pedophilia, one would have to be predisposed to believing he is guilty to have that opinion. Which is what my point is. When you have the desire to see someone caught out as being no good, slim to little evidence is all you need to be "sure".

Lord Foul wrote:A lot of the "morbid fascination" was his own self-promotion (the surgical mask, a cue from Howard Hughes; the oxygen tank picture); it's similar to many celebrities who do stunts to stay in the public eye.

The degree that these stunts were premeditated attempts at self-promotion is debatable. But regardless, they would not have been thoroughly saturated the media if there had not been morbid fascination first. Or so it seems to me.

wayfriend wrote:IMO Michael Jackson is testimony that society can't truly tolerate people who want to live outside the norms. That he did so, and got to be rich and famous at the same time, was somehow intolerable to many people. This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

Wow, talk about judging people you don't know. Are you speaking of anyone in particular? At first you say "society" and then you say "many people." Do you know anyone personally that fits this characterization? Or did you just make it up?

It's true that some don't like "people who live outside the norm." But to say that people wanted him convicted of pedophilia merely because they thought he was weird is quite an accusation to make with no evidence.

I never thought MJ was weird until he started sleeping with little boys who weren't his children. That's weird. I don't think this is testimony that society can't tolerate people who dress strangely and own monkeys (we did make him rich and famous, after all) . . . I think it's testimony that society doesn't tolerate child molesters.

This kind of judgemental speculation about people who don't like Jackson reminds me of the people who still think that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist. It's an unjustified attack upon people who are voicing justifiable criticism.

wayfriend wrote:The degree that these stunts were premeditated attempts at self-promotion is debatable. But regardless, they would not have been thoroughly saturated the media if there had not been morbid fascination first. Or so it seems to me.

There was sensationalism, yes, but also concern and wonderment at why he had changed so physically. What was going on inside? And then the molestation charges only exacerbated this. I think the concerns were only natural, and less about scorn or jealousy. For the most part I believe it was pity--pity that he remained so tortured despite money, adulation, and a guaranteed name in the history books. And there were parallels--his lifestyle of wanting to remain a child and being near children; it made the charges a bit more than mere fantasy or cash-grabs; one had to wonder.

To me it's all natural and well-due fascination. There was, let's admit, no facet of Jackson's life that wouldn't be spotlighted or explored by the media. He was up there with The Beatles and Elvis, and when your face is that changed and your life that far left, there will be talk. It's the same effect a child might have when he ogles a new scar on his knee. Michael produced the same effect as a car wreck, really, except on the world stage, and it was mostly his life choices.

But I digress: I don't think I or anyone ever went, "Man, Mike gets to act so weird and be accused of so many crimes and gets to be rich." It was more like just shaking my head and the inability to ignore both his body dysmorphic disorder and the testimony of the 2005 trial.

wayfriend wrote:

rdhopeca wrote:

wayfriend wrote:This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

My desire to see him convicted arose out of my opinion that he is guilty of the crime.

IMO, there's not enough reasonable evidence to have an opinion that he is guilty of pedophilia, one would have to be predisposed to believing he is guilty to have that opinion. Which is what my point is. When you have the desire to see someone caught out as being no good, slim to little evidence is all you need to be "sure".

To quote Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, I'll trade you my "OJ is innocent" t-shirt and my "Ellen is straight" t-shirt for your "Michael is innocent" t-shirt.

There's enough evidence for me to have my opinion. Whether it's reasonable to you or not is irrelevant.

rdhopeca wrote: There's enough evidence for me to have my opinion.

Exactly. I believe there is overwhelming evidence that the man was a pedophile, IMO. It has nothing to do with a "predisposition" to believe the worst about him. It has to do with MJ admitting that he got little boys drunk and slept with them. I know he was acquitted. I'm not saying he should have been put in jail. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have let my children have a sleepover with him--and I think that is a sane, reasonable precaution most parents would take. It doesn't mean they are intolerant bigots who can't stand weirdos, and are predisposed to view weirdos as pedophiles. It was Jackson's own actions which brought about this impression of impropriety. It's not our fault.

Maybe there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, but it is ridiculous to say there wasn't enough evidence for me to have an opinion.

Malik23 wrote:Maybe there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, but it is ridiculous to say there wasn't enough evidence for me to have an opinion.

But there isn't enough evidence for anyone to confidently sneer that they are absoluetly sure of it. IMO, going that far reflects a desire, a need for it to be true regardless of whether it's supportable.

There are millions of people who don't believe those charges, that they are just extortion attempts. And there are millions of people who are absolutely sure he is guilty.

There are millions of people who think of Michael Jackson first and foremost as an entertainer. And millions of people who think of Michael Jackson first and foremost as a freak.

What I find interesting is the high degree of correlation between the two.

You can argue that it's the other way around. That people think he's a pedophile, and that's why they think he's a freak. But the freak opinion existed long before the pedophile charges came out.

Malik23 wrote:This kind of judgemental speculation about people who don't like Jackson reminds me of the people who still think that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist.

It may remind you of it, but it's exactly the opposite thing. What I am saying is analagous to saying that anyone who is a racist is likely to disagree with anything Obama does.

MJ brought a lot of it on himself. He refused to understand why there might be any legitimate problem with sleeping with boys on national TV. Someone should've advised him better, and now all the news about how his latest "advisers" pretty much killed him (easy access to drugs, pushing 50 concerts on him as an ultimatum) is quite telling.

Well, MJ's gone now, so by all means beat this into the ground, because I'm sure it's making one heck of a difference to somebody.

Who cares? We'll discuss MJ if we like, being on a, well, hm, discussion board? Wow!

By all means go ahead, then. Just don't expect anything to change as a result of it.

This thread is definitely not the Change We Need. I agree there. I was hoping for an Oprah interview or some cultural impact, but in the end I've decided to just exchange a few points with Wayfriend. It's been quite satisfying!

Yeah, I'm definitely up for an Oprah interview, followed by a group hug.