Kevin's Watch

WF: I wonder how many people nowadays would even make the connection between "zounds!" and "God's wounds". I didn't make it myself until I read Shakespeare in high school...

Along with what Tracie said about invoking God -- I think, as a practical matter, that's the real danger for believers who casually throw his name around. God is, of course, watching all the time, etc., but saying his name is invoking him, regardless of your intention at the time -- and cursing may not be a part of your behavior that you want him to pay special attention to.

'Fraid I swear all the time, though you wouldn't know it from my writing. And as popular cultural swearwords, those all get added into the mix. I'll try and be sensitive if I happen to know that people around me are religious, (any religion), but that doesn't always work out.

I suspect that half the catharsis of swearing involves the breaking off tabboo's and to those of us with any significant exposure to Christianity know, that injunction is pretty tabboo, so the urge to beak it remains long after our adherence to it is rationalised away.

(Raised a Catholic, became an atheist at around 14 or 15, for them as don't know.)

--A

wayfriend wrote:"Cripes"

I would bust out laughing if I heard someone say cripes!
I think i used to say it as a kid.

Out of curiosity, what's everyone's opinion on the etiquette for people who do not find it necessarily a sin or on the same level as profanity/cuss words? I've had several discussions about this particular topic. If someone is at work, say, the wok etiquette includes "no profanity", but should someone be scoffed at if they say "oh my god" or "god!" as an expression of exasperation?

I mean, considering that we refrain from using profanity where we otherwise would in order to not offend or insult someone....

Should we then refrain from using "god" or "oh my god" in order to not offend or insult those that would find it offensive in a religious context?

Is this pushing a religious practice onto someone, or is it a courtesy expected of those adhering to a "work standard"?

Is it even right for those who would find it offensive to take offense, when the offense would be directed at that particular god/savior?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

I don't think too many people consider "Oh my God" to be profane these days.

It falls into the category of culturally ok, and so no consideration is generally made for the possibility some would find it offensive when they are uttered. There are those that do, sure, but it's not the norm.

As opposed to phrases people do consider profane - generally, people consider if it's offensive before uttering those. There are those that don't, sure, but I'm holding out hope it's not yet the norm.

Since I believe I'm god-being-born in the universe--physical existence waking up to itself--I take offense at you guys invoking my title without my permission.

Malik23 wrote:Since I believe I'm god-being-born in the universe--physical existence waking up to itself--I take offense at you guys invoking my title without my permission.

Cripes!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Malik23 wrote:Since I believe I'm god-being-born in the universe--physical existence waking up to itself--I take offense at you guys invoking my title without my permission.

Cripes!

You guys are too much fun.

I love your question, Kaydene. As a Pagan, I've had a similar discussion with Christians in the past. I've been told I'm committing blasphemy if I say there's no Hell (the Christian construct, anyhow) and no such thing as sin -- which, as a Pagan, I believe. I mean, there aren't too many things Pagans agree on theologically, but that's one of them. But if the Christian then goes on to say that Paganism is devil worship and so on, and I point out that now he/she is blaspheming *my* religion, well, it doesn't usually go over too well....

wayfriend wrote:(And are you successfully steering clear when you say "Gosh Darn" or "Cripes"? I think not.)

Surely, humans are allowed to say something to express such emotions without it being a problem from a religious pov?

Kaydene wrote:I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Hi Kaydene. I think those who avoid things like the f- and s- words out of respect for those who do not like hearing them will avoid these things, also. I mean, really, the f-word doesn't cause the slightest harm to any listener, so why not say it? Same reason as not saying these things.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Malik23 wrote:Since I believe I'm god-being-born in the universe--physical existence waking up to itself--I take offense at you guys invoking my title without my permission.

Cripes!

aliantha wrote: I love your question, Kaydene. As a Pagan, I've had a similar discussion with Christians in the past. I've been told I'm committing blasphemy if I say there's no Hell (the Christian construct, anyhow) and no such thing as sin -- which, as a Pagan, I believe. I mean, there aren't too many things Pagans agree on theologically, but that's one of them. But if the Christian then goes on to say that Paganism is devil worship and so on, and I point out that now he/she is blaspheming *my* religion, well, it doesn't usually go over too well....

I understand. Things like this have happened to me as well.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Kaydene wrote:I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Hi Kaydene. I think those who avoid things like the f- and s- words out of respect for those who do not like hearing them will avoid these things, also. I mean, really, the f-word doesn't cause the slightest harm to any listener, so why not say it? Same reason as not saying these things.

I agree with the philosophy of what you're saying. I mean, the f- word and s-word don't cause real, physical pain to anyone just like the taking-god's-name-in-vain doesn't either. However, saying the f-word, s-word....c-word...d-word....etc...these are bodily functions (and body parts). To say them in a profane and disrespectful way is offensive to those with these bodily functions. It demeans that body.

Now, that said, those who take offense to taking god's name in vain would say that doing it offends god. Not only does is not take the person's name who was offended in vain, but also....Are we required to observe that religious belief in order to play nice?

First of all, all this dirty talk is starting to turn me on.

As for the discussion... Mmm, not sure I agree with your reason why saying those words is offensive. I've never thought of it that way, and never heard it described that way. Sure, it can be viewed that way, I just don't think that's why people find it offensive.

As for "playing nice" about the in vain stuff, if we want to be on good terms with someone who is offended by it, then yes. If we don't care about the person who is offended, then whatever.

General profanity (as opposed to taking God's name in vain) has an element of shock value and impoliteness to it. (The connection to bodily functions comes from the shock value and impoliteness of speaking of bodily functions that we don't speak of.)

It also has an element of intentional offense in it.

But mostly there is an element of release in it. Most of us swear when we're exasperated, shocked, angered, etc. Swearing is a way of taking bad energy and getting rid of it. Of venting.

Ultimately, we do it to feel better.

And I don't know why that works. I don't know why shock and impoliteness and intentional offense can be used at such moments to make us feel better.

Maybe it comes from the "freedom" escaping society's box?

Or maybe it's a way to step outside of our cultural house and scream?

Kaydene wrote:Should we then refrain from using "god" or "oh my god" in order to not offend or insult those that would find it offensive in a religious context?

Is this pushing a religious practice onto someone, or is it a courtesy expected of those adhering to a "work standard"?

Yes, we should on the whole, but only because it is a courtesy. Don't think it has anything to do with a work standard, but then, I swear constantly at work too. (even in the boardroom at my old job, to the occasional annoyance, but general humour, of everybody else. (Actually, only 1 person ever complained. ) )

Ali wrote: I've been told I'm committing blasphemy if I say there's no Hell (the Christian construct, anyhow) and no such thing as sin...

I'm fairly, although not 100%, sure that "heathens" cannot be charged with either blasphemy or heresy. (Officially by the church I mean. I know that IIRC, around 900AD or so, they couldn't be. Dunno if they ever changed that.)

--A

Avatar wrote:

Ali wrote: I've been told I'm committing blasphemy if I say there's no Hell (the Christian construct, anyhow) and no such thing as sin...

I'm fairly, although not 100%, sure that "heathens" cannot be charged with either blasphemy or heresy. (Officially by the church I mean. I know that IIRC, around 900AD or so, they couldn't be. Dunno if they ever changed that.)

That's certainly my own stance. Of course it didn't stop the Church during the Inquisition.... I'm just entertained by the double standard. Along those same lines are comments like: other cultures have myths; *we* have sacred texts.

So how would this be judged?

Cagliostro wrote:So how would this be judged?

lol. I watched this a couple of weeks ago. It was....interesting, to say the least. :p

wayfriend wrote:I'm afraid that you'll find that I'm one of those pick-and-choose Catholics. Amongst my indiscretions which will surely send me to hell according to some, I take the Lord's name in vain, eat meat on Friday, and pretty much don't make much effort to keep the Sabbath holy - if the lawn needs mowing, it gets mowed on Sunday if I didn't do it on Saturday.

Seeing as how the Sabbath is Saturday, then mowing on Sunday is okay.

What about songs? A situation in which the thanks may have been sincere when the song was written, but are then repeated with less/no sincerity later. (Came to mind because I just heard a someone sing "thank God it's over").

In a similar vein, what about fiction? Is it acceptable to write (or speak, in film/TV or on stage) "thank God" when a fictional character would be sincerely thanking God if it were real?