Kevin's Watch

My (only) question to the gradual interview concerned Nick's death. I think he deserved better. Everyone else got the chance to recover/redeem themselves, except Nick.

Everyone is the product of their experiences. Sorus was just as responsible for Nick's actions as he was for his own.

Hmmmm, I think Nick had his chance and blew it. Then again, I also think Nick was less than well after he lost Captain's Fancy, which played into him botching the attack on Soar.

I don't think Nick tried to redeem himself, and that's why he died.

Loremaster wrote:I don't think Nick tried to redeem himself, and that's why he died.

I agree. Angus went after redemption, and Nick only went after revenge. So Angus got both, and Nick got neither.

SRD wouldn't like my saying this, but there's a sort of Christian message in that. 'Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.' (Matthew 6:33) The kingdom of God, of course, doesn't enter into The Gap, but Angus would never have turned out as well as he did if he hadn't learned to try a little bit of righteousness now and then.

It takes a lot of guts to admit that you've done wrong all your life, especially when you've done it on Angus's scale. But then, as Angus himself liked to point out, he had a lot of guts, and did all his thinking with them. Maybe that's what saved him in the end.

Very good points! I agree.

I disagree. Angus was always trying to get revenge on Nick and revenge on Milos. The only reason he didn't was because his datacore and zone implants prevented him.

The only way Nick could have redeemed himself was to kill Sorus. That was his whole life. Before he met Sorus he was just a stationer's son with aspirations to become a spacer. Sorus made him what he was, why should he pay for her actions?

But Nick went nuts and was incapable of killing Sorus. Sort of poetic justice that he was denied the only thing that mattered to him.

poetic justice? In what way was it justice?

Poetic in the fact that Nick did so much to deny others what they wanted.

Nathan wrote:I disagree. Angus was always trying to get revenge on Nick and revenge on Milos. The only reason he didn't was because his datacore and zone implants prevented him.

Not true. Remember, the control on Angus was deactivated. At that point, Angus worked with Nick. He let Nick go to his death - that was his only revenge.

Nathan wrote:The only way Nick could have redeemed himself was to kill Sorus. That was his whole life. Before he met Sorus he was just a stationer's son with aspirations to become a spacer. Sorus made him what he was, why should he pay for her actions?

How does redeeming himself by killing Sorus work? Did he make Sorus do something? Explain.

Nick was already dead by the time Angus was released from his zone implants. That didn't happen until he was back at Earth.

Sorus made Nick what he was. Her actions aboard the original Captain's Fancy ruled the rest of his life, and he couldn't have himself back until he killed Sorus. Revenge on Sorus would have been his redemption.

Everything Nick did in the story (perhaps ever) was a reaction (normally revenge) to something someone had done to him and the way he reacted was brought about by his experiences with Sorus. Sorus created Nick Succorso, she should be held equally responsible. Just because she turned against the Amnion in the end doesn't make her exempt from previous crimes.

Nathan wrote:Nick was already dead by the time Angus was released from his zone implants. That didn't happen until he was back at Earth.

Just curious, did you actually read Chaos and Order? Or did you skip the part where Morn and Davies changed the datacore that controlled him? I seem to recall at that point Angus was no longer under control of the instructions programmed by Warden and Hashi. He was released from the instructions sooner. And, I might add, nothing happened to him when he got to Earth; he escaped in the end.

Nathan wrote:Sorus made Nick what he was. Her actions aboard the original Captain's Fancy ruled the rest of his life, and he couldn't have himself back until he killed Sorus. Revenge on Sorus would have been his redemption.

Everything Nick did in the story (perhaps ever) was a reaction (normally revenge) to something someone had done to him and the way he reacted was brought about by his experiences with Sorus. Sorus created Nick Succorso, she should be held equally responsible. Just because she turned against the Amnion in the end doesn't make her exempt from previous crimes.

Nathan, the Gap sequence is all about people redeeming themselves for their actions. Not Nick having to redeem himself for Sorus' actions. Nick could have redeemed himself for selling Morn to the Amnion, or torturing her, punishing Mikka . . . . I doesnt matter that Sorus turned against the Amnion - she redeemed herself. But Nick was always responsible for his actions, not Sorus.

Just curious, did you actually read Chaos and Order? wink.gif Or did you skip the part where Morn and Davies changed the datacore that controlled him? I seem to recall at that point Angus was no longer under control of the instructions programmed by Warden and Hashi. He was released from the instructions sooner. And, I might add, nothing happened to him when he got to Earth; he escaped in the end.

Yes, I skipped the whole book. I thought: Why bother reading Chaos and Order when This day all Gods die has a much cooler title?
Anyway, back to the subject at hand: Morn and Davies did no such thing, they allowed Angus to edit his own datacore, which he did to the extent that he no longer had to follow orders from Nick. Remember Angus' datacore editing technique was very clumsy, he could only make the most basic changes. As I remember it, Angus wasn't fully released from the control of his datacore until he heard the words "Vasectomy" and "Apotheosis" in This day all Gods die (did you skip that bit?) at which point he was temporarily overwhelmed by the knowledge and power granted to him.

Nathan, the Gap sequence is all about people redeeming themselves for their actions. Not Nick having to redeem himself for Sorus' actions. Nick could have redeemed himself for selling Morn to the Amnion, or torturing her, punishing Mikka . . . . I doesnt matter that Sorus turned against the Amnion - she redeemed herself. But Nick was always responsible for his actions, not Sorus.

How can Sorus redeem herself for creating Nick Succorso by turning against the Amnion? The two events have no connection whatsoever. She also spent years serving the Amnion, doing their bidding in exchange for humanity - the ultimate betrayal of humankind. Doing a bit of damage to Calm Horizons makes up for all that, does it? It's entirely disproportionate.

Because of who he was (a man cut by Sorus) Nick could only do one thing with his entire life: Try to get revenge. That's Sorus's fault.

Nathan wrote:Anyway, back to the subject at hand: Morn and Davies did no such thing, they allowed Angus to edit his own datacore, which he did to the extent that he no longer had to follow orders from Nick. Remember Angus' datacore editing technique was very clumsy, he could only make the most basic changes. As I remember it, Angus wasn't fully released from the control of his datacore until he heard the words "Vasectomy" and "Apotheosis" in This day all Gods die (did you skip that bit?) at which point he was temporarily overwhelmed by the knowledge and power granted to him.

Just to let you know, this is what you wrote earlier:

Nathan wrote:Angus was always trying to get revenge on Nick and revenge on Milos. The only reason he didn't was because his datacore and zone implants prevented him.

Angus could have got his revenge on Nick when Morn deactivated the controls in Chaos and Order. Your recent post (above) just confirmed that he was free to some degree. He couldn't actually hurt Nick personally, but he could let Nick be hurt. In this sense, he was powerless to protect Nick.

Nathan wrote:How can Sorus redeem herself for creating Nick Succorso by turning against the Amnion? The two events have no connection whatsoever. She also spent years serving the Amnion, doing their bidding in exchange for humanity - the ultimate betrayal of humankind. Doing a bit of damage to Calm Horizons makes up for all that, does it? It's entirely disproportionate.

Because of who he was (a man cut by Sorus) Nick could only do one thing with his entire life: Try to get revenge. That's Sorus's fault.

I never said Sorus should redeem herself for creating Nick. She redeemed herself for all her crimes. It wasn't the damage that redeemed her - it was taking fire from Calm Horizons and the act of turning against the defensive.

It is partly Sorus' fault for Nick's state - but Nick chose to be obsessed for Sorus. To argue that Sorus is fully to blame for Nick's urge for revenge is foolish.

Nick didn't deserve redemption for the simple reason that he didn't seek to redeem himself. He was obsessed with revenge against Sorus, and had he killed her it would have been in no way a redemption for him - a fulfillment, perhaps, but redemption could not come from such an act.

Angus could have got his revenge on Nick when Morn deactivated the controls in Chaos and Order. Your recent post (above) just confirmed that he was free to some degree. He couldn't actually hurt Nick personally, but he could let Nick be hurt. In this sense, he was powerless to protect Nick.

He couldn't let Nick be hurt. He was still forced to protect/unable to hurt UMCP personnel. This is mentioned later when he lasers Min Donner's hand aboard Punisher.

I never said Sorus should redeem herself for creating Nick. icon_rolleyes.gif She redeemed herself for all her crimes. It wasn't the damage that redeemed her - it was taking fire from Calm Horizons and the act of turning against the defensive.

It is partly Sorus' fault for Nick's state - but Nick chose to be obsessed for Sorus. To argue that Sorus is fully to blame for Nick's urge for revenge is foolish.

This implies that creating Nick wasn't a crime. Do you really believe that?

People don't choose to be obsessed with something, obsession is something that happens to people, not something that people try to cultivate for themselves. Sorus is entirely responsible for Nick's urge for revenge, who else is to blame for it? She cut him, I doubt he would be after revenge if she hadn't done anything to him. He wanted to get back at her for that. That's what revenge is.

Murrin: It would redeem him, he would get his life, his self-esteem, his self back. Sorus took those things from him when she cut and betrayed him.

Sorus crime against Nick was one small, relatively minor act on her part. She was not responsible for what Nick made of it. He became what he was because of his choices, not because of what she did to him - yes, it shaped his attitude towards women and some of his outlook on life, but the rest was all him, following on from the ambitions he had before he even met her. Sorus Chatelaine cannot be held responsible for Nick Succorso.

I personally don't see revenge as a form of redemption. To me, revenge has nothing to do with redemption, as a matter of fact.

Redemption has to do with spiritual/personal growth to the point where you no longer feel the need to get revenge on people that hurt you.

It's learning to let go of things (like the desire for revenge, or an obsession with your pain or hurt pride) that hold you back from getting on with your life...

Nathan wrote:People don't choose to be obsessed with something, obsession is something that happens to people, not something that people try to cultivate for themselves. Sorus is entirely responsible for Nick's urge for revenge, who else is to blame for it? She cut him, I doubt he would be after revenge if she hadn't done anything to him. He wanted to get back at her for that. That's what revenge is.

I'm sorry, Nathan. What you have just said is utterly ridiculous. So someone obessessed with child porn didnt choose to become obsessed? You are saying that it just happens to them without them choosing it? What about the person obsessed with hand washing - obssessive compulsive disorder? They cultivate for themselves in that they have faulty thinking. Short of all this is that everyone can choose not to be obsessed - it takes work - but it is our choice.

You must think Nick is a robot - programmed by Sorus - that he had NO CHOICE in his life. Nick had every chance to forgo revenge but he chose to continue on. Want an example of how Nick gets obessed with revenge? Morn. When she betrayed him all he could do was sell her to the amnion; he needed to hurt her bad the way she had 'hurt' him. Tell me, Nathan: did Nick choose or not choose to get revenge against her?

Sorus hurt Nick - but it took a character like Nick to desire revenge. The proof that it is more than Sorus is that if she did it to others they probably wouldn't obsess about it.

We're working from different basic beliefs here, I don't think you understand why I'm saying the things I say. If you look at the determinism thread you'll probably understand me better (and perhaps you'll stop calling me names too).

I'll get the link for you, I couldn't go more into explaining my reasoning without going wildly off topic, besides, it's all been said already in the other thread.

edit: Here it is kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4771&highlight=determinism