Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien
This is a really great prediction. I think it actually might go down that way. After all, the Elohim are the Worm's food. Also, Kastenessen is so powerful that none of the main characters, except Covenant and Jeremiah, have a chance against him. Even Linden with the Staff would be overwhelmed by an Elohim's power. Jeremiah could maybe trap Kasty in a construct if given time, but only Covenant unleashing Wild Magic could hope to beat an Elohim one-on-one.singingstone wrote: Kastanessen will be eaten by the Worm.
Foul's not holed up under the mountain again, is he? Unless my memory is worsening, I don't recall Foul's location mentioned in the Last Chronicles yet. So I suppose the Wightwarrens are a *bit* cleaner these days. But yes, I agree with your sentiment.singingstone wrote:Thanks Horrim Carabal.
It may be a long shot, but I really hope that Something is done to cleanse the Whitewarrens under Mount Thunder, and wash the Sarangrave Flat. Those places have been defiled for countless millennia, and they deserve a little healing.
The Demimages. Yes, maybe Foul's built himself a new Creche in Videk Amar! But I think he'll probably turn up somewhere in the Land...Murrin wrote:His current location is unknown, but on the other hand there have been several references to a certain period in his distant past before the first chrons, when he apparently studied with some magical cabal (distant predecessors of Kasreyn, iirc) and produced the Quellvisk...
So we might not know where Foul will appear in the end, but I can't help wondering if that part of his history will become even more important.
Good point. Maybe he will be redeemed somehow?Murrin wrote:Re: Kastenessen - is that what happens to victims in Donaldson's books? Kastenessen was driven mad by the punishment of the Elohim, he was not evil by his own nature. I don't see him being devoured. Or at the least it won't be so straightforward.
There seems to be a lot of parallels emerging in the Last Chronicles between scorned women and their betrayers. For instance, There is Kastenessen and his mortal lover, Lord Foul and Diassomer Mininderain, Covenant and Elena, Covenant and Joan, and last but not least there is the Bane who, if I undersand it correctly, is an entity made up of scorned women.murrin wrote:Re: Kastenessen - is that what happens to victims in Donaldson's books? Kastenessen was driven mad by the punishment of the Elohim, he was not evil by his own nature. I don't see him being devoured. Or at the least it won't be so straightforward.
I like your line of thought generally, but I view it differently as well.singingstone wrote:I see your point that he is a victim, but it was also his duty to contain the skurj. Not only did he avoid his responsibility, he is also at fault for the merewives.
I don't see how one makes the other impossible, moreover, I seriously doubt Kastenessen's beloved will be happy to walk free finally to get to know her beloved is lost.singingstone wrote:I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be redeemed, but I think the Women have a greater need to be vindicated.
I don't see these as much parallel. There is a lot in common for the women in the list, but the "couples" look odd to me. Kastenessen, like I said above, was separated from his beloved by force. Lord Foul, at least for how it looks out of the current information, which is not much, intended to mislead from the very beginning, though that's an old legends stuff, it may be much distorted and at least one thing looks suspicious to me as I look back. Covenant had pretty much nothing better to do about Elena, it's more like LF could be meant here again - it was him who used her and made her do what she hated most. And Covenant loved Joan sincerely, it was more like she betrayed him.singingstone wrote: There seems to be a lot of parallels emerging in the Last Chronicles between scorned women and their betrayers. For instance, There is Kastenessen and his mortal lover, Lord Foul and Diassomer Mininderain, Covenant and Elena, Covenant and Joan, and last but not least there is the Bane who, if I undersand it correctly, is an entity made up of scorned women.
Interesting point, but I think you could argue that it's part of the intrinsic nature of the Elohim that any of them are liable to be Elected to confront a threat to the Earth, and it's the refusal to face that (however unpleasant it may be) that is Despite.The skurj running around are no reason for joy, but I think, as Lord Mhoram said that Despite is resisted willingly - or not at all, there was no right for anyone to enforce such a fate on someone.
[/img] The question is more like "Should it be that way?"starkllr wrote:...
Interesting point, but I think you could argue that it's part of the intrinsic nature of the Elohim that any of them are liable to be Elected to confront a threat to the Earth, and it's the refusal to face that (however unpleasant it may be) that is Despite.
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Do you think Mhoram would say something like "Ok, it's not a question of Despite here, go get killed or suffer forever to resist, these don't care about your choice"? Of course, it's not easy and often people have to make choices when they have to lose something every way. But shouldn't they at least try as hard as possible to avoid such choices, to guard every life and freedom to the very end?starkllr wrote:...
But also, are the Skurj really an avatar of Despite at all? They're "wrong" but not evil; from what we've been told so far, they have no will or sentience, just an unquenchable hunger to consume. There's no moral choice you can make with them, no question of ethics, any more than there would be in trying to limit the damage from an earthquake or a tornado.
Thank yousingingstone wrote:Effaeldm and starkllr-
Good points all.
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Yes, with this I agreesingingstone wrote:...
In regards to the parallels that I mentioned, they might not be the same, but it seemed to me that SRD brought them up for a reason, and he does not do that lightly. The Bane convinced me of that. It was too similar for me to ignore and I think it will be a big theme in TLD.
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And with this moreover)singingstone wrote:...
Kasty the merewives and the skurj may not be Evil, but no one in the Land (or anywhere else for that matter) ever starts that way. Even Foul has his reasons for doing what he did. I agree that no one should suffer eternally and would like to believe that everyone can be redeemed.
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I think any far - or at least that it should be so.singingstone wrote:...
That brings another question to mind: How far can someone go down a dark path before they are irredeemable? Is there a point when someone has lost their ability make a change? More to the point: How much does past experience excuse present bad choices?
I won't pretend to know the answers, I just think it's interesting.
Good point, and rethinking things, I have to agree with you here.Do you think Mhoram would say something like "Ok, it's not a question of Despite here, go get killed or suffer forever to resist, these don't care about your choice"? Of course, it's not easy and often people have to make choices when they have to lose something every way. But shouldn't they at least try as hard as possible to avoid such choices, to guard every life and freedom to the very end?
I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.The question is more like "Should it be that way?"
This part of history is not covered much, but it looks quite different. Hard to say for sure, but looks like they weren't created to be expendable, and turned out to need to do that because of the things LF did. And they're no blood cells, unless those are sentient, understanding what happens and wishing to change that, and also with a risk of that going on for any period of time.starkllr wrote:...I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.The question is more like "Should it be that way?"
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Starkllr wrote:I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.
When an Elohim is Appointed he/she still has free will. Unfortunately for them, that choice is between bad and worse. They can prevent the destruction of the Earth wit their sacrifice or they can let it happen, but that isn't the issue. They could have been actively interested in the fate of the Earth instead of hiding out in Elemesnadene, partying it up. If they had acted sooner the Sunbane would have never been a threat. They could have used a portion of their power instead of sacrificing one of them if they had been watching like they used to. That's not Despite, but it is laziness and egotism.Effealdm wrote:Hard to say for sure, but looks like they weren't created to be expendable, and turned out to need to do that because of the things LF did. And they're no blood cells, unless those are sentient, understanding what happens and wishing to change that, and also with a risk of that going on for any period of time.
I don't think so, we're discussing how various characters and events may turn out, basing that on what is known.singingstone wrote:One more thing I will say about the Elohim, because we seem to be going off the thread.
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Well, that's not a choice anyone should be given.singingstone wrote:...
When an Elohim is Appointed he/she still has free will. Unfortunately for them, that choice is between bad and worse.
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On that I definitely agree, though their behavior seems more on the stupid side for me, than lazy. They did what they thought was right, but they could really use thinking on that better. Their under-appreciation of Lord Foul reminded me of Terry Pratchett's quote "Murder was in fact, a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpok, but there were a lot of suicides. Waliking in the night time alleyways of The Shades was suicide, asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide, you could commit suicide very easily if you weren't careful.")singingstone wrote:...
They could have been actively interested in the fate of the Earth instead of hiding out in Elemesnadene, partying it up.
To be fair to the Elohim, there's not much they could do about Foul. He's immune to Earthpower, and they are pure Earthpower. Although I wonder if the Elohim could have stopped the Sunbane, had they bothered to act.Effaeldm wrote: On that I definitely agree, though their behavior seems more on the stupid side for me, than lazy. They did what they thought was right, but they could really use thinking on that better. Their under-appreciation of Lord Foul reminded me of Terry Pratchett's quote "Murder was in fact, a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpok, but there were a lot of suicides.
