Kevin's Watch

ninjaboy wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote:Elena is Britney Spears.

Linden is Lindsay Lohan.

What is this?

I don't even..

Well, I was being silly. But...

Britney Spears is off-her-head nuts.

Lindsay Lohan is troubled, but basically sane.

See?

Clever. But, despite admiting that Elena makes Liv Taylor, Angilina Jolie and Mirranda Otto combined look ugly, I must offically enter my application to THOOHLEH (The Holy Order of High Lord Elena Haters). Take that THOOLAH!

What's to hate??

I think with Linden, it may be some outdated bias against people who kill other people.

But you should check w/ the actual Linden-hataz to be sure. Actually, I think it's a dumber reason than that for most of them.

I think with HLE, it might be the whole abuse-of-power thing.

That's crazy, I'm not a big fan of Lindens but only because I really enjoy Covenants POV, he's much more interesting although I appreciate the part Linden plays in the plot weavings. Elena on the other hand to me was the most compelling character I read about, her flaws made her much more human to me, closer to TC than some of the other inhabitants of the land. Complex, beautiful, easily more charismatic than Mhoram (I love mhoram before people moan!) you just knew that both mhoram and linden would always get it right and for me that made a lesser emotional ride. I genuinely was on the edge of my seat on the quest for the seventh ward. Hate is a strong word for a very human mistake (passionate about saving what she loved under great pressure) who could say they definately wouldn't do something similar if they were in her position. I empathise with her

Personally I think Elena would be great as a Lord of the Council, just not as High Lord.

There are lots of people like that in every organization. Put them in middle management, they are stars. Stick them at the top, and it's a total disaster.

I think that makes a lot of sense and you're right I've seen that happen myself when someone is just too prematurely promoted or hasnt developed the skills and more importantly the experience to deal with their new role.
Having said that nothing in the book up until covenant shows up suggests Elena hadnt done a fantastic job of the high lord role. In her defence (yes there is a little bias but I'm trying to be objective lol) she went through the loresraat which in itself was a major achievement in self discipline, was voted in by choice of the council including mhoram, helped Troy to become warmark, was respected by her peers. The way she handles the council and people showed great leadership and confidence, something everyone needed at such a troubling time, handled TC with such deftness that he would have followed her into peril (which he did), created the marrowmeld which showed mhoram why the oath of peace had hindered their unlocking the wards of kevins power and fought kevins own shade alone for how many days? She was a powerful and strong leader and a good choice at the time. Her weakness was that she didn't understand the futility of attacking despite and
the consequences of actions as powerful as the power of command. Her
passion overruled her reason at a highly pressurised moment with the fate of the land and her friends at hand, hindsight is a wonderful thing and she knew shed got it wrong as soon as she did it. She did her best and I feel very sorry for her

its an interesting one but I think its a longshot to say Mhoram knew that Elena would succumb. As SRD says she couldve gone either way and in the PTP you get an inside view of Mhorams thoughts and its clear he suffers from the same dilemmas as the other lords. He agonises over Trells pain and what to do (misjudged when Trell almost causes a ritual of desecration himself) he agonised over the decision to tell the other lords about his secret and im not sure his decision to abandon Kevins lore helped long term with the clave.
He had the chance to convince Elena before she departed but in their discussion and mindmeld he agreed that she should go, something he tells Hile troy afterwards. He is also a good friend to her and he voted her in?
I agree though Mhoram is more in control of his emotions and is wiser and more understanding of his limitations and the way to resist despite, he did after all have 2 lords for parents and was a lord for a lot longer than Elena.
For me its Elenas lack of all these things not to mention her relationship to TC that makes her more remarkable because she has a tougher mountain to climb

I think Hashi's on track here...even if Mhoram didn't know the exact nature of Elena's failure...
At some point fairly early on, IIRC, TC asks Mhoram why he isn't high lord, and Mhoram says basically "it isn't my time, yet." And I think even the first time I read it I recall feeling a very strong sense of foreboding...
[I hope I'm not having leaky or psuedo memories on this.]

Edited to add: and Mhoram is a seer, that's important to the point...

I cant argue that Mhoram knew it wasn't his time, there was also the last stand painting that worried Elena as she wondered why mhoram was alone and beset by enemies. She herself said that she thought the war would go beyond her, the omens were all around, even hill Troy said he had a feeling that something would happen to Elena to mhoram as she left for the quest.
She was just fated to fall, I'm not sure SRD ever had any intention that she wouldn't, it was a neccessary part of the story, a sacrifice to move tc into a more active role in the land. I guess that is why I pity her so much

I dont believe she fell into despair, she just made a bad decision by listening to her passion instead of her head. She absolutely believed she was doing the right thing, that Kevin would be able to meet her desires.

What bothers me about the whole sequence is why Bannor did not drink and send Kevin back to sleep. I would think saving the High Lord would overcome his native dislike for using weapons or lore (in this case, Blood). To me, it was as out of character for a Bloodguard as when Thomin allowed Lord Vetrement(?) to commit suicide by trapping himself.

SRD has been fairly open about the fact that he plotted the first chrons in such a way that he needed someone that Covenant would have to face prior to the final confrontation with Foul. This would have to be a person of power, formerly a Lord or other ally, and someone close to Covenant.

Elena was invented with the explicit intention that her fate in the first chrons would be what we know it to have been.

Spoiler

More than this I cannot say in this forum.

I guess that was what I found do compelling. With all the omens and how close she and tc were becoming and the way the plot was moving It became more and more certain something would happen to her.
SRD painted her more and more vulnerably and sweeter to tc (he to her also) as the tale went on, it already felt doomed and I was powerless as a reader to stop it happening. I remember as a 13yr old shouting out, "do something!! Stop her! Convince her!". It touched a very buried part of me that wanted to stop bad things happening to people I cared about (a bit like anakin in AOTC). That is why mhoram is wise he let's people and fate take it's course and controls himself.
I don't think she gave into despair either, she thought with her passion instead of her reason as denubis stated. I have done this more times than I know and paid for it but I'm always wiser afterwards, Elena never got the chance to learn from hers. I think she's suffered too much for a very human mistake

Can I just kick back a few posts to the thing about Elena being high lord. Surely the fact that she was Covenants daughter must have been a major factor in it. Covenant was held in such awe by not only the council but everyone in the Land to the point where they would tolerate even his most heinous crimes. His daughter - the daughter of the White Gold Weilder would have seemed a must to the Council for high lordship - how could it be otherwise (in fact I'm not even sure this is not refered to somewhere in TIW).

ps Sorry if this point has already been made guys - I'm rushing a bit today and can't give the posts the attention they deserve

I'm reading TIW again at the moment, it's a great book and one I never tire of. It's clear in the text that Elena has an inner metal that is deemed ideal in leading the council at a time of war, she certainly comes across as the most charismatic Lord at the council an easily has the most natural authority. You have to remember that osandria was the high lord on prothalls retirement and she likewise had a natural authority and inner steel. Mhoram was oracle and seer and I think worked best in thi role supporting the highlord with wise council and consultation. I think it's about why personality suited which role

Horrim Carabal wrote:Personally I think Elena would be great as a Lord of the Council, just not as High Lord.

There are lots of people like that in every organization. Put them in middle management, they are stars. Stick them at the top, and it's a total disaster.

Btw, I stopped following this thread too soon, it seems! Nice observation.

Why do you think that is? (I have my thoughts, for sure!)

jonnyredleader wrote:I cant argue that Mhoram knew it wasn't his time, there was also the last stand painting that worried Elena as she wondered why mhoram was alone and beset by enemies. She herself said that she thought the war would go beyond her, the omens were all around, even hill Troy said he had a feeling that something would happen to Elena to mhoram as she left for the quest.
She was just fated to fall, I'm not sure SRD ever had any intention that she wouldn't, it was a neccessary part of the story, a sacrifice to move tc into a more active role in the land. I guess that is why I pity her so much

So, then, are we to make that Elena is just a helpless pawn of the author, not responsible for her own decisions?

[Edit: Ahh. I just read on and got to the post where u said 'it already felt doomed and I was powerless as a reader to stop it happening. I remember as a 13yr old shouting out, "do something!! Stop her! Convince her!" ' Okay, that touches me & I identify w/ what you're saying there. Makes that earlier bit make more sense to me.]

Also, I like how you pointed out how Mhoram had two lords as parents. I would add "two lords who LOVED each-other as parents."

Darkdenubis- I think the phrase "to meet her desires" is a very appropriate one. Elena is a woman who is very attracted to very powerful, desperately-wounded men. I think that is her Achilles' heel, and it is what so imperils her judgement.

Linna Heartlistener wrote: Why do you think that is? (I have my thoughts, for sure!)

Well, I can hazard a guess:

Some people thrive in the middle-management milleu, where there are folks below them and also folks above them to which they are responsible.

Such superiors can serve as a "brake" on their wilder or more out-of-focus creative impulses or intuitions. People above them keep them on track, as it were.

When these people are themselves at the top, they are given free grip on the wheels of power, and sometimes use that grip to steer the organization straight into a ditch!

I suspected you'd come up with other useful thoughts if I asked you before putting forward my ideas... didn't even think of that version!

I was just thinking of the fearful responsibility of feeling "It all depends on me; if I don't do EVERYTHING right, it will all fall apart." (which may or may not be true!)

And sometimes the truly driven people are unable to face their failures, so they go into a downward spiral if they stumble once.

I wasn't thinking of the folks below and above them - but the folks alongside them who will identify with their struggles, laugh at the frustrations that "come with the business" and have comradeship with them.

When someone's at the top, there's so much that can reasonably be considered unwise and "unsafe" to explain to those below. I think of the saying "it's lonely at the top."