What Happened to the Anti-War Movement?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I think a lot of us that were for the war(s) are now against it now.
I am.

Afghanistan was fantastic. Bush was able to get airbases in countries I had never heard of before, got all these different factions to work with us against the Taliban.
I was 100% behind that.
I wouldn't have been upset if we nuked the place after 9-11.
But..... if you told me that we'd still be there after 11 years looking like it's going to be 15......I would have said "excuse me?".


Gitmo.
I was for it.
It's humane, better than mainland prisons.
It made sense to keep those a-holes out of American courts.
But......I didn't think it would be for 11+ years.
America does not hold people for 11+ years without a trial.
That's obscene.


Iraq.
Bush thought there was a threat.
Fine. I said "ok, do it."
If something happened because we did nothing I'd want Bush strung up.
But.......if you told me that's we been there for 8 years.......no way.

[Rawedge Rim]

I think a lot of us that were for the war(s) are now against it now.
I am.

Afghanistan was fantastic. Bush was able to get airbases in countries I had never heard of before, got all these different factions to work with us against the Taliban.
I was 100% behind that.
I wouldn't have been upset if we nuked the place after 9-11.
But..... if you told me that we'd still be there after 11 years looking like it's going to be 15......I would have said "excuse me?".


Gitmo.
I was for it.
It's humane, better than mainland prisons.
It made sense to keep those a-holes out of American courts.
But......I didn't think it would be for 11+ years.
America does not hold people for 11+ years without a trial.
That's obscene.


Iraq.
Bush thought there was a threat.
Fine. I said "ok, do it."
If something happened because we did nothing I'd want Bush strung up.
But.......if you told me that's we been there for 8 years.......no way.

so you were looking for a "Short Victorious War". Sorry, only happens in Starcraft, especially if you aren't willing to use overwhelming force, and not worry so much if civilians are caught in the crossfire.

[Holsety]

My participation in the antiwar movement on a general level died when, participating in a protest against the Iraq War, the country as a whole ignored me and the other people who spoke out (inarticulate as we probably were) on the basis that we did not know enough to invade with any sort of rationality.

After that, collective action was a great cosmic joke to me.

*Butthurt*

[Zarathustra]

In a "welcome home" speech to troops at Fort Bragg 12/14/11, Obama's remarks included the following:

Now, Iraq is not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we're leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people.

We're building a new partnership between our nations. And we are ending a war not with a final battle, but with a final march toward home.

This is an extraordinary achievement, nearly nine years in the making.

...

Because of you, because you sacrificed so much for a people that you had never met, Iraqis have a chance to forge their own destiny.

That's part of what makes us special as Americans. Unlike the old empires, we don't make these sacrifices for territory or for resources. We do it because it's right.

There can be no fuller expression of America's support for self-determination than our leaving Iraq to its people. That says something about who we are.

Now, I know that he's got to say cheerful, positive things because he's President. But we all know how he opposed the war, called it "dumb," opposed the surge which led to victory. So does the rest of the anti-war movement view the Iraq war in such glowing terms now that their guy sits in the office? Do they think we did this "because it's right"? So other people can forge their own destiny? He's adopting some of Bush's justifications in hindsight. The question now is: does he mean it, or is it just pandering to military families? Is it merely a stunt to bolster his political fortunes, or does he actually think Bush was right, as he seems to claim in hindsight?

[wayfriend]

BTW, anyone else besides me happy that the troops are coming home? That seems like the important thing.

RE: "because it's right". Give Obama credit for careful speechwriting. He's not claiming anything about the Iraq War. He's describing the ideal. If anything, he's subtly chiding the previous administration for not keeping "because it's right" in mind when they went to war.

[Vraith]

I'd guess it's at least in part because as Pres. and CiC, you kinda have to say these sorts of things.

But also, especially if you include the sentence after the one you bolded, whatever/however we got into it, the leaving without claiming, pillaging, salting the earth IS a real difference...though I'd say it's only one facet of how we've done things historically, and the rose-colored facet at that.

[Zarathustra]

BTW, anyone else besides me happy that the troops are coming home?

No, you're the only one, Wayfriend. Do you honestly have to ask that? Are you genuinely uncertain whether anyone else is happy--as if the possibility is a real one--or are you simply using a declaration of happiness over the troops coming home as an opportunity to imply others here don't have their priorities straight, or don't like the troops as much as you? You wouldn't be using the troop home coming as an opportunity to make snippy, derogatory points about your fellow Watchers, would you?

RE: "because it's right". Give Obama credit for careful speechwriting. He's not claiming anything about the Iraq War. He's describing the ideal. If anything, he's subtly chiding the previous administration for not keeping "because it's right" in mind when they went to war.

You really think he wrote it? I don't usually give Presidents credit for words they read off teleprompters. But he did say them, so he must own them, and be held accountable for them. In this instance, he wasn't talking about an ideal. He was talking specifically about the soldiers in front of him in that moment:

"Because of you, because you sacrificed so much for a people that you had never met, Iraqis have a chance to forge their own destiny.
That's part of what makes us special as Americans.

"That" refers directly to the example he gave in the sentence just before it. And he again includes this example as an instance of the general statement:

Unlike the old empires, we don't make these sacrifices for territory or for resources. We do it because it's right.

"These sacrifices" can only mean sacrifices like the one he just mentioned, the sacrifices by the soldiers of the war in Iraq. If he didn't intend to include Iraq in that statement, "these sacrfices" as no referent.


Vraith, not only did we leave Iraq without claiming it, we never claimed it in the first place. The point doesn't merely apply to the act of leaving it.

[aliantha]

I'd guess it's at least in part because as Pres. and CiC, you kinda have to say these sorts of things.

Exactly. He's talking *to* the soldiers. They've come home from fighting an unpopular war. The last thing we need is for this to turn into another scar on the American psyche like Vietnam was.

Regardless of how he (or any of us) felt about the war in Iraq while it was going on, it's over now. He's not being two-faced -- he's giving the troops an attaboy.

Of *course* he had a speechwriter. Doesn't change anything.

And re the war being over:

[Cail]

Over, except for the tens of thousands of armed Americans on the American government's payroll who will be there indefinitely, right?

I'm pretty sure that's what you meant to say, because otherwise you're just celebrating yet another bogus "Mission Accomplished" moment.

[aliantha]

Amended to what Cail said.

I wondered about that in all the hoopla, to be honest. I was pretty sure we were leaving some advisors/peacekeepers/your-definition-here behind, and was surprised to hear *all* the troops are coming home. I'm relieved to hear we're not totally abandoning the Iraqis to their own devices. Just can't help but think of Dani in ASoIaF -- conquering all those nations and then moving on, leaving them in chaos....

[Cail]

All the uniformed combat troops are coming home. There are quite a few military advisors staying, as well as numerous representatives from the various alphabet-soup agencies, not to mention thousands and thousands of "private security contractors"....Basically a for-profit army paid for by the US government.

[[Syl]]

As well as the largest US embassy in the world.

[Cail]

As well as the largest US embassy in the world.

Well yeah, but that's just because of all the tourism.

[Vraith]

All the uniformed combat troops are coming home. There are quite a few military advisors staying, as well as numerous representatives from the various alphabet-soup agencies, not to mention thousands and thousands of "private security contractors"....Basically a for-profit army paid for by the US government.

I've been looking at this, and not finding much, but AFAICT, their will be a total of about 9000 personnel left, and only half of them security/military related. That's not really many...last I knew we have more than that in Italy, for instance...and 3 times that in Korea, and 5 times that in Germany [roughly].
But, if we're gonna leave security-related peeps, the fact that they're private contractors bugs me. Bugs me quite a lot, actually.

[aliantha]

Me too. I'd rather see uniformed US troops there than employees of whatever Blackwater is calling itself this week.

[Cail]

The numbers are really hard to pin down. I've seen estimates ranging from 10,000-100,000. I question whether or not anyone actually knows.

And yeah, I'd much rather it be uniformed troops that were there. They're at least responsible to a clear chain of command.

[Avatar]

Gonna be very interesting seeing what happens now...and yeah...never really trust the mercs. ('Cause that's what they are...private security companies notwithstanding.)

--A