2011 KW Religious Composition Poll

[ussusimiel]

Shoulda put my definitions in first of all

Meant 'Organised Religion', i.e bureaucracy and the like, involved with political power etc.

The 'Rest' then includes what I call the spiritualists and the materialists.

I thought the purpose of the poll was to sort the sheep from the lambs

This will probably only get me into more trouble, heh!

u.

[Vraith]

Shoulda put my definitions in first of all

Meant 'Organised Religion', i.e bureaucracy and the like, involved with political power etc.

The 'Rest' then includes what I call the spiritualists and the materialists.

I thought the purpose of the poll was to sort the sheep from the lambs

This will probably only get me into more trouble, heh!

u.

Heh...so much I want to make jokes about, but I know you, U. don't think I'm funny...
But I can't resist this one [don't anyone get offended, now]

"sort the sheep from the lambs"
is easy!
The sheep are the ones following "The Lamb."
[@ 1 in 5].

[ussusimiel]

"sort the sheep from the lambs"
is easy!
The sheep are the ones following "The Lamb."
[@ 1 in 5].

*token*

Nope, you're still not funny but your efforts are

u.

[aliantha]

Shoulda put my definitions in first of all

Meant 'Organised Religion', i.e bureaucracy and the like, involved with political power etc.

The 'Rest' then includes what I call the spiritualists and the materialists.

I thought the purpose of the poll was to sort the sheep from the lambs

This will probably only get me into more trouble, heh!

u.

You got *that* right, babycakes!

[Menolly]

Went ahead and redid the Belief-o-Matic. Completely different results which even took me aback.

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. New Thought (100%)
2. Scientology (91%)
3. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (77%)

Reading up on New Thought, I see much that resonates with me. But I am far from believing in "spiritual healing." I do believe energy affects health, but also believe positive thought needs to work along with other treatments.

I also think the quiz does not differentiate between the concept of the Universe and G-d as One, and that G-d/The All contains the Universe and more. I definitely fall in to the second belief category.

Fascinating, though.

[ussusimiel]

Went ahead and redid the Belief-o-Matic. Completely different results which even took me aback.

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. New Thought (100%)
2. Scientology (91%)
3. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (77%)

Snap!

Mine were:

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. New Thought (100%)
2. Scientology (98%)
3. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (83%)

Maybe we should talk to each other more often, we seem to share a lot of common spiritual ground

Reading up on New Thought, I see much that resonates with me. But I am far from believing in "spiritual healing." I do believe energy affects health, but also believe positive thought needs to work along with other treatments.

I 'm with you here. For me energy healing supports the emotional and psychological work that needs to be done.

I also think the quiz does not differentiate between the concept of the Universe and G-d as One, and that G-d/The All contains the Universe and more. I definitely fall in to the second belief category.

Haven't thought beyond the God-is-all-existence part of this but definitely like the gist of it. My quibble with the quiz was that there was no mention of the importance of the body. This has become of greater and greater importance in spiritual matters for me over the years.

u.

[Menolly]

I also think the quiz does not differentiate between the concept of the Universe and G-d as One, and that G-d/The All contains the Universe and more. I definitely fall in to the second belief category.

Haven't thought beyond the God-is-all-existence part of this but definitely like the gist of it. My quibble with the quiz was that there was no mention of the importance of the body. This has become of greater and greater importance in spiritual matters for me over the years.

Other than being convinced that all can be found by focusing within, and that more mentally than physically, the body does not have that much importance to me spiritually right now. Perhaps that may change as I strive to get healthier and also age. But for now, it isn't really part of my spirituality.

[Ananda]

My quibble with the quiz was that there was no mention of the importance of the body. This has become of greater and greater importance in spiritual matters for me over the years.

u.

I thought the quiz was rather limited in a lot of ways, too, and very christian focused.

Could you expand on what you mean about the body, please? I'm very interested to hear more of your thoughts.

[ussusimiel]

My quibble with the quiz was that there was no mention of the importance of the body. This has become of greater and greater importance in spiritual matters for me over the years.

u.

I thought the quiz was rather limited in a lot of ways, too, and very christian focused.

Could you expand on what you mean about the body, please? I'm very interested to hear more of your thoughts.

This is quite hard to put into words so please bear with me and forgive me if I get too abstract or vague

I'll begin by quoting Teilhard de Chardin (just found out that it was he who said this (ain't Google's great!)):

'We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.'

I used to do what religious people normally do (I was raised a Catholic) and focus on the primacy of the spirit over the body. Now I heed de Chardin and acknowledge that on this plane of existence the body is primary (by the simple logic that if I didn't have a body my spirit could not be here).

To put this another way: I believe that my spirit comes from another place (another plane of existence) and that it cannot exist here except in my body. This perspective then causes me to ask, what is so special about my body that it is able to house my spirit?

For me it has to do with complexity. The human body contains such a complexity of nervous connections that it has potentials that we haven't even imagined yet (which is why I agree with Menolly's comment above, 'all can be found by focusing within').

(For a possible quantum physics explanation for some of these potentials consider what is called quantum entanglement and remember that all matter (including that which makes up our bodies) was present at the Big Bang. Hilariously (for me) Einstein described the entire universe as a local field )

By focusing on the body and its potentials many of the things that science and rationality stuggle with, not only become explicable but become ordinary: energy healing, intuition, psychic abilities and so on.

Then the place of the spirit starts to take on, IMO, its proper place. The spirit is here to experience what it is like to be human. It is here to learn the wonder of the material, the marvel of connection and communion and the potential of love. I believe that it is only when the spirit comes to engage with and accept the awesome potential of the human body (as opposed to the 'the mire and blood' of Yeats) is enlightenment/peace/unconditional love/healing entered into. (Not there myself yet, unfortunately ) This is the condition where body and spirit exist in communion with each other, rather than in conflict (which is the default and actually encouraged and reinforced by many religions ).

I believe that when the body and spirit exist in a state of harmony our ego/self dissolves and consciousness expands so that reality becomes visible, all time is seen for the illusion it is (each moment containing all other moments future and past) and the place of our universe in the whole of existence becomes clear. In this state of ecstasy/bliss our animal body does not fear death as it is one with our spirit. At the most fundamental level of our existence on this plane we experience our immortality.

In this way, I believe, that all spiritual experience is founded in the body and that spiritual practice that tends to and cares for the body is preferable to practice that focuses on attempts to deny or to escape the body.

Thanks, Ananda, for allowing me to attempt to articulate this, I hope I didn't bore or boggle you.

u.

[Ananda]

Thanks, ussusimiel. I found your answer very interesting. It did not bore me out of my gourd and I never had to squash down a yawn. I have some more things I'd like to say and ask about what you wrote. However, time to fix my lovelies some dinner instead. Before I go, though, the first thing that came to mind is the concept of 'joyful participation' in samsara and a middle path. More later.

[Ananda]

U, would you go a step more and, because of the 'local field' (that was a cute way of seeing it and combining einstein- I liked that), that all things, not just the human body house the 'energy' or whatever of the whole and that we just tend to see it from our perspective because we are us?

Also, it seems to me that you're talking about this:

In Hinduism, it is avidya, or ignorance, of one's true self that leads to ego-consciousness of the body and the phenomenal world. This grounds one in kāma (desire) and the perpetual chain of karma and reincarnation. Through egoism and desire one creates the causes for future becoming. The state of illusion that gives rise to this is known as Maya.

And, of course, there is the liberation from the ignorance in this system as well. It is a one-ness that we already have but just can't see till the point of enlightenment, etc. The idea is that everything is already 'one' but too caught up in the ego of self to realise it.

For me, I don't see myself as any different to a rock, a table, a distant cloud of space dust. It is only m perception of self that makes me not see that we are not discreet. But that is not to denigrate my body, but to lift all other 'bodies' to equals. Not sure that made sense!

[ussusimiel]

Not sure that made sense!

You boggled me

Only joking, I understood all you said. Although I don't know a lot of detail about Hinduism/Buddhism I have a general sense of them, so what you say fits very well with where I'm coming from.

I agree that all 'bodies' (animate and inanimate) hold the 'energy' of the universe, the only difference that I might see has to do with awareness. And this relates to the spirit. I think that as we grow in self-realisation and our ego/self loses strict control of our body/mind our awareness increases. The point here, for me, is that the dissolution of the ego/self does not lead to the extinction of awareness but the expansion of awareness (this is where the materialists generally disagree with me ).

So, I agree with you that our bodies are not necessarly 'above' the rock or the cloud, but, I hold (but don't insist ) that the complexity of our bodies allows our kind of spirit to be here (thus allowing the awareness).

Clear?

u.

[High Lord Tolkien]

1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (95%)
3. Theravada Buddhism (94%)

[aTOMiC]

Finally did it but results, like most of the once's posted before me, are wildly inconclusive.

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (80%)
3. Unitarian Universalism (77%)

Or how about...

Your Top 3 Favorite Ice Cream flavors Are:

1. Vanilla (with toppings and whipped cream)
2. Vanilla (with toppings but no whipped cream)
3. Vanilla with chocolate flavor

[Hashi Lebwohl]

(For a possible quantum physics explanation for some of these potentials consider what is called quantum entanglement and remember that all matter (including that which makes up our bodies) was present at the Big Bang. Hilariously (for me) Einstein described the entire universe as a local field )

By focusing on the body and its potentials many of the things that science and rationality stuggle with, not only become explicable but become ordinary: energy healing, intuition, psychic abilities and so on.

A possible explanation for entanglement is that particles below a certain threshhold are able to exist in dimensions higher than ours; the "doorways" to those dimensions are small, as in subatomic small. Speed or distance might not exist there as it does here, so there is no "speed of light" limitation in higher dimensions. Purely speculative, mind you, but this is plausible and open for investigation.

It is interesting that you mention focusing on internal potential and how to release it. Look into rTMS, repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation, and how it could possibly unlock potential in the brain that we normally cannot access. I would love to have such a device and experiment on myself with various settings just to see what I could uncover. *sigh* A hopeless fantasy, that.

[aliantha]

Finally did it but results, like most of the once's posted before me, are wildly inconclusive.

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (80%)
3. Unitarian Universalism (77%)

Or how about...

Your Top 3 Favorite Ice Cream flavors Are:

1. Vanilla (with toppings and whipped cream)
2. Vanilla (with toppings but no whipped cream)
3. Vanilla with chocolate flavor

What, you wanted something weird?

It's not inconclusive. It just means you need to find yourself a more liberal Protestant church, that's all.

The only reason I said the Unitarians are a little "out there" is that in my experience, they tend to draw people who want a religious-type fellowship experience but who have a lot of questions about whether God exists. (I sat through one sermon in which the word "God" was never mentioned.) You see pretty certain on that score, so yeah, probably not the best fit for you.

[sgt.null]

i am a practicing Catholic. (also have been called a bad Catholic)

belief-o-meter says...

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (81%)
3. Orthodox Quaker (79%)

retook the test...

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (99%)
3. Seventh Day Adventist (92%)

so my beliefs remained consistant.

[ussusimiel]

It is interesting that you mention focusing on internal potential and how to release it. Look into rTMS, repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation, and how it could possibly unlock potential in the brain that we normally cannot access. I would love to have such a device and experiment on myself with various settings just to see what I could uncover. *sigh* A hopeless fantasy, that.

Thanks Hashi. I've never heard of rTMS. I'll check it out (on Wiki ).

u.

[Orlion]

Good idea, sarge!

No surprises.

Your Top 3 Faith Match Profiles Are:
1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Theravada Buddhism (91%)
3. Secular Humanism (83%)

Yeah, I pretty much got the same, with secular humanism in top position.

This time around:
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (91%)
3. Liberal Quakers (82%)

[Zarathustra]

My quibble with the quiz was that there was no mention of the importance of the body. This has become of greater and greater importance in spiritual matters for me over the years.

u.

I thought the quiz was rather limited in a lot of ways, too, and very christian focused.

Could you expand on what you mean about the body, please? I'm very interested to hear more of your thoughts.

This is quite hard to put into words so please bear with me and forgive me if I get too abstract or vague

I'll begin by quoting Teilhard de Chardin (just found out that it was he who said this (ain't Google's great!)):

'We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.'

I used to do what religious people normally do (I was raised a Catholic) and focus on the primacy of the spirit over the body. Now I heed de Chardin and acknowledge that on this plane of existence the body is primary (by the simple logic that if I didn't have a body my spirit could not be here).

To put this another way: I believe that my spirit comes from another place (another plane of existence) and that it cannot exist here except in my body. This perspective then causes me to ask, what is so special about my body that it is able to house my spirit?

For me it has to do with complexity. The human body contains such a complexity of nervous connections that it has potentials that we haven't even imagined yet (which is why I agree with Menolly's comment above, 'all can be found by focusing within').

(For a possible quantum physics explanation for some of these potentials consider what is called quantum entanglement and remember that all matter (including that which makes up our bodies) was present at the Big Bang. Hilariously (for me) Einstein described the entire universe as a local field )

By focusing on the body and its potentials many of the things that science and rationality stuggle with, not only become explicable but become ordinary: energy healing, intuition, psychic abilities and so on.

Then the place of the spirit starts to take on, IMO, its proper place. The spirit is here to experience what it is like to be human. It is here to learn the wonder of the material, the marvel of connection and communion and the potential of love. I believe that it is only when the spirit comes to engage with and accept the awesome potential of the human body (as opposed to the 'the mire and blood' of Yeats) is enlightenment/peace/unconditional love/healing entered into. (Not there myself yet, unfortunately ) This is the condition where body and spirit exist in communion with each other, rather than in conflict (which is the default and actually encouraged and reinforced by many religions ).

I believe that when the body and spirit exist in a state of harmony our ego/self dissolves and consciousness expands so that reality becomes visible, all time is seen for the illusion it is (each moment containing all other moments future and past) and the place of our universe in the whole of existence becomes clear. In this state of ecstasy/bliss our animal body does not fear death as it is one with our spirit. At the most fundamental level of our existence on this plane we experience our immortality.

In this way, I believe, that all spiritual experience is founded in the body and that spiritual practice that tends to and cares for the body is preferable to practice that focuses on attempts to deny or to escape the body.

Thanks, Ananda, for allowing me to attempt to articulate this, I hope I didn't bore or boggle you.

u.

Fascinating stuff. From my perspective, I believe this is a way to deal with the cognitive dissonance of retaining spiritualism in the modern age, spiritualism post-enlightenment era. It's kind of like creationists emphasizing irreducible complexity and intelligent design in order to make their religious belief a quasi-scientific one.

But before you think I'm criticizing you, let me emphasize that I'm not. I think you're honing in on a "middle truth" that I've been approaching myself from the opposite direction, and still haven't exactly captured. In fact, I'm not sure if the middle truth can ever be apprehended. Cognitive dissonance is natural in a world where paradox is real. I don't believe we can get rid of paradox by either form of reductionism--either materialism or spiritualism--nor do I believe that we can embrace the paradox by a naive form of dualism (e.g. Cartesian dualism). The embracing will have to take a different form. Your description of the ecstatic experience is very close to what I'm thinking about. [Have you ever experienced this yourself? Psilocybin ('shrooms) has been the only way I've been able to do it, myself.]

For myself, I have rejected materialism not because of a belief in the spirit, but because I think that there are "phenomenological remainders" that cannot be explained or even described in purely materialistic terms. I don't necessarily think that this implies a separate "substance" from body, like a ghost inhabiting the machine, but I do think that we don't understand matter sufficiently to reduce mind to matter. I like to phrase it as, I believe matter is a lot more "spiritual" than we've previously known. But the scare quotes there are important. I think the belief in a spirit is just as naive as belief in materialistic reductionism ... i.e. a material world that entirely explains away consciousness and mind in terms of functionalism or purely material properties (as matter is currently understood). Another way to state this belief is to say that I think building a conscious computer is impossible. Consciousness isn't an algorithm manifest in matter.

Therefore, I do feel a sense of conceptual kinship in your desire to downplay the primacy of those on your side of spirit/body divide. I prefer to downplay the primacy of materialism by noting that modern science (quantum mechanics especially) contradicts our common sense notions of what matter is. While this doesn't split reality in two (dualism), in my opinion, it does reveal that reality is not Newtonian.

[It's posts like yours that give me some hope that there actually will be an audience for my book, if I can ever finish it and get it published. This is exactly what I'm exploring in a fantasy setting.]