Kevin's Watch

WF, irony noted. However, this discussion is on topic for this thread, and not a derail. Also, there's a difference between complaining to have been attacked and pointing out that there was no attack.

I'd like to see solutions. If you think that people are treating you unfairly, why don't you propose that the guidelines be changed so that no one can ask your for your response, for instance? (Good luck with that.) I have proposed that we change the guidelines so that people can't toss around the word "abuse" for trivial reasons, so that my complaint would actual lead to a positive change. I don't know how your complaints can resolve themselves without proposing serious change. Joke threats don't really seem to work for you. So how about a new strategy? If you honestly think the rules should be altered to carve out special protections for you, then propose it! If not, then stop complaining.

I'm serious about my complaint. No jokes here. I wish we either made it against the rules to accuse others of abuse, or simply got rid of the rules altogether so that the difference between imaginary and real abuse could be amply demonstrated. There would be no confusion, then, I assure you. People would be able to tell the difference.

Lord Mhoram wrote:Cail, you yourself suggested that your latest flare-up with wayfriend was unprecedented in your time here. Doesn't that uniqueness itself suggest that something wrong might be going on here? Something worth talking about?

Can you point to exactly where I suggested that it shouldn't be talked about?

It's very clear what the problem is. The problem is a single poster who's polluted every thread he's in. Don't believe me? Go back to last year when he was gone for a few months. There's nothing during that stretch that holds a candle to the regular BS that everyone has to deal with when he darkens the forum. There were a few dust-ups that I recall, and every one of them was dealt with before the overnight (or during the weekend) when there was no moderator present.

But how can that be, given the mess that's gone on here recently? Because most of us are adults, and we all recognize that this isn't a life-or-death struggle, or an attack on the core of our being.



But my how people show up out of nowhere to tell us what to do.

Oh, come on, Cail. wayfriend has been posting on the Watch for eight years, and the Tank hasn't always been as bad as it is now. Right? The consensus seems to be that the forum's in a pretty bad state right now, yet you're blaming it all on a guy who's been here since the beginning (pretty much)? It's reductionist and silly to pin all of this forum's problems on him.

Ex, thanks! Glad to see you've come back too.

LM I have to come to Cail's defense on this one. He has made numerous public and private efforts to resolve the situation in the absence of effective moderation. Nothing has worked.

Don Exnihilote wrote:LM I have to come to Cail's defense on this one. He has made numerous public and private efforts to resolve the situation in the absence of effective moderation. Nothing has worked.

It's not just me either. There have been a ton of PMs sent to moderators and amongst members in an attempt to quell the issues here. Literally nothing has worked.

And yeah, Wayfriend's been here for 6 weeks less than I have. So what? His bizarre behavior has been getting markedly worse over the last few years. Read the other posts here LM, it's not just me saying that.

Zarathustra wrote:Sin, perhaps we're very different people, but if we did what I'm saying, very different people could separate out into different forums, and everyone would be happy. Those who like structure and authority would be satisfied, and those who like no rules and being free from those who want to control would be satisfied.

The other site I go to--where they have a current events forum that is moderated, and a debate forum that is not--never has these drama-queen breakdowns like we see here. If you feel too constrained in the Current Events forum, you don't have to be there. If you feel abused and unprotected in the debate forum, you don't have to be there. Sure, there are more insulting exchanges in the debate forum than here, but no one ever complains! No one runs to the mods and demands action. No one demands a "higher" tone. Everyone just lets everyone else be who they are, and allow them to sort themselves into respective forums.

There is actually quite a bit of rational, mature debate in the no-mod forum. You'd think that assholes would take over the place, but when everyone else can push back with equal force, it self-moderates. It's the illusion of authority here that produces the problem. If people can break rules (like calling me a dick or threatening violence) and virtually nothing happens, what good is it to have rules?

It's like the gun control debate. Making up rules that don't stop the ones who are willing to break them anyway is a pointless way to have rules. It really only limits the people who wouldn't be breaking the rules anyway.

First, let me preface this by saying I think you don't always poke Wayfriend (or others) in the eye when blowups occur, but, there are certainly times that you do provoke him, and you know from experience that kind of provocation is going to lead to him (or others) to not address your points on the debate, but, rather to address your provocation.

I personally can't see any value in spending your time entering a debate, and then deliberately do something to cause someone else to not answer your argument, but, instead to end up derailing the debate? What does that accomplish? Why would you bother entering a debate, if you don't really want to engage the other person's argument,, but, instead want to provoke them into not being able to present their argument.

Cail wrote:

Don Exnihilote wrote:LM I have to come to Cail's defense on this one. He has made numerous public and private efforts to resolve the situation in the absence of effective moderation. Nothing has worked.

It's not just me either. There have been a ton of PMs sent to moderators and amongst members in an attempt to quell the issues here. Literally nothing has worked.

And yeah, Wayfriend's been here for 6 weeks less than I have. So what? His bizarre behavior has been getting markedly worse over the last few years. Read the other posts here LM, it's not just me saying that.

Yea, LM, I didn't notice who started it, or exactly when, but, one day in the last year or two, all of a sudden Z, Cail, Ex, and Wayfriend became unable to get along more and more each week. At this point, everyone is probably equally at fault, but, something happened one day or one thread, and it's gone downhill ever since.

sindatur wrote:Yea, LM, I didn't notice who started it, or exactly when, but, one day in the last year or two, all of a sudden Z, Cail, Ex, and Wayfriend became unable to get along more and more each week. At this point, everyone is probably equally at fault, but, something happened one day or one thread, and it's gone downhill ever since.

If anyone can point to a post I've made toward WF that was out of line--not just against the rules, but simply "not cool"--I'll concede that point. While I'd like to exclude posts after the stabbing threat (which started all of this, imo), I'll openly apologize for any post I've made even since then. If the consensus is that it's perfectly rational for people to talk about stabbing anyone who asks for a response, then take that stand, and I'll back down from saying it was irrational/unbalanced.

I'll stand by any post I've made, or apologize if necessary. If you make the accusation, all I ask is that you back it up.

Cail wrote:It's not just me either. There have been a ton of PMs sent to moderators and amongst members in an attempt to quell the issues here. Literally nothing has worked.

Interesting. And I wasn't involved at all.

It's not a good sign when one side gets to discuss the issue with the moderators and make their case, while the other side is omitted from all discussion. I think we can see the stark unfairness that pervades the forum. I had believed it but had no evidence of it until now.

Zarathustra wrote:If you think that people are treating you unfairly, why don't you propose that the guidelines be changed so that no one can ask your for your response, for instance?

You seem to be operating under several delusions. When your arguments devolve into ad hominem attacks or false accusations, and I say, hey, your arguments have devolved into ad hominem attacks and false accusations again, you are completely imagining the part where I wanted the rules changed to prevent you from doing that. All I ever want to do is talk about what kind of argument you are making. Perhaps part of your issue is what you fill your own head with. If you have seen anything from me, you have seen me try to address issues of how you argue by the [pitiful] power of my own persuasion.

Zarathustra wrote:I'm serious about my complaint. No jokes here. I wish we either made it against the rules to accuse others of abuse, or simply got rid of the rules altogether so that the difference between imaginary and real abuse could be amply demonstrated.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want more freedom to keep treating people like shit, but want to stifle people who want to point out that you are treating people like shit. Sounds like a great world for the shit dealers, and a pretty bad world for the shit sufferers. Is this an ubermensch/Nietzsche/Third Reich thing?

wayfriend wrote:

Cail wrote:It's not just me either. There have been a ton of PMs sent to moderators and amongst members in an attempt to quell the issues here. Literally nothing has worked.

Interesting. And I wasn't involved at all.

It's not a good sign when one side gets to discuss the issue with the moderators and make their case, while the other side is omitted from all discussion. I think we can see the stark unfairness that pervades the forum. I had believed it but had no evidence of it until now.

The last time I contacted you via PM was in November of 2009 regarding the USS New York thread. I will be more than happy to post your insane ramblings from that exchange if you like.

You have not been involved in my efforts to moderate the madness in the Tank, and it's very, very clear that you wouldn't be receptive to it. Hell, you haven't done as Avatar asked, you're certainly not going to respect me.

As far as unfairness? No one has kept you from sending PMs to other members or to the moderators, or to the admins. This is yet another example of your persecution complex, and yet another reason why I think you're a danger to people.

Lord Mhoram, awesome to see you back)

As for the topic - I'm afraid it went by gradual escalation, with each next move kind of justified and confirmed by the previous one and possibly somewhat stronger or just different, like those games with changing one letter at a time, as a result, neither side feels wrong or unjustified.

Not much the others can really do with this then, except for trying to persuade and hoping the sides can come to a consensus - with at least one or better both extending olive branches. I don't see anything good in a situation when two smart, wonderful people argue on and on and without end - as far as I see, nothing achieved with that for either.

Maybe taking a break could really help - or shifting the perspective, like discussing something completely different together, for instance, I wonder if any you mentioned the recent second Gap book dissection attempts - with Iolanthe of all people calling Milos names) - I think some people here could ace at that

I'm sorry if I look like I'm barging in and turning into one of those looky-loos, moreover if I sound flippant any much - if it turns out so, that's by screwup, not by intent - I don't find any people here shallow or anything like that, quite the opposite, I decided to join the Tank in spite of my general lack of enthusiasm about politics exactly because of the people who I'd like to talk to more, and my recent appearance is my lucky timing - made my first post here five days ago)

Also, Cail and Zarathustra, do you recognize who Worm is? If not, he's the poster formerly known as Lord Foul and LF.

And I fetched a sample of how a "debate" can go if the participants are really stupid and shallow and angry. I hope everyone can see there aren't any people here like on this video. BBC World News: Ukraine parliament fight 0020 25 May 2012

Vraith wrote:

Cail wrote:

Don Exnihilote wrote:Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.

FOUR laughies for a joke that was already dying of old age when Confuscious was still alive and saying??
The Tank HAS gone to hell!!!

I think the funniest thing in that is that it sounds not like a joke, but like a statement - and rightfully so)

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:...
Those parody lyrics to "All Along the Watchtower" in my signature are out and this quote is in.

Looks like I can't find those parody lyrics anywhere now - were they posted somewhere on the Watch also, or in some other place?

Sure, I'm probably the only one here who will get that, but it's still funny.

wayfriend wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:If you think that people are treating you unfairly, why don't you propose that the guidelines be changed so that no one can ask your for your response, for instance?

You seem to be operating under several delusions. When your arguments devolve into ad hominem attacks or false accusations, and I say, hey, your arguments have devolved into ad hominem attacks and false accusations again, you are completely imagining the part where I wanted the rules changed to prevent you from doing that. All I ever want to do is talk about what kind of argument you are making. Perhaps part of your issue is what you fill your own head with. If you have seen anything from me, you have seen me try to address issues of how you argue by the [pitiful] power of my own persuasion.

Zarathustra wrote:I'm serious about my complaint. No jokes here. I wish we either made it against the rules to accuse others of abuse, or simply got rid of the rules altogether so that the difference between imaginary and real abuse could be amply demonstrated.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want more freedom to keep treating people like shit, but want to stifle people who want to point out that you are treating people like shit. Sounds like a great world for the shit dealers, and a pretty bad world for the shit sufferers. Is this an ubermensch/Nietzsche/Third Reich thing?

Thank you, Wayfriend.

If I have been an asshole to you, Zarathustra, it's only because you continued the argument when I wanted it to stop. I even apologized.

Worm of Despite wrote:I apologize if I got heated.

And yet you want the shit to continue erupting. I only give back as much as I get.

My friend.

You have no idea. No idea what powers you deal with.

God help you.



Now Z. We can either put this bullshit behind us or continue Armageddon, because I haven't even begun or been trying at this point. Let's shake hands and man up together. I'd much rather discuss solutions for fixing the Think-Tank.

[quote="[Syl Embattled]"Sure, I'm probably the only one here who will get that, but it's still funny.[/quote]

Yeah, I had to Google it.
Is it from Trailer Park Boys?
Sounds like I missed a good show!
I found this too and my cheeks hurt from laughing so hard:


Ricky, you just opened up Pandora's shit-box

Do you know what a shit-barometer is Bubbles? It measures the shit-pressure in the air, listen Bubs you hear that? The sounds of the whispering winds of shit

You feel that? The way the shit just sticks to the air? There's a shit-blizzard comin, I always know

We're about to sail into a shit typhoon Randy, so we'd better haul in the jib before it gets covered with shit

You idiots have loaded up a hair-triggered double-barreled shit machine gun, and the barrel's pointed right at your own heads!

Shit moths Randy. They started as shit larvae and then the grew into shitapillars. A whole pandemic of shitapillars

Shit tectonics - do you know what happens what two shit plates collide? Shitquake

They're shit flowers Randy, from here they look like regular flowers but when you get down and poke your nose in them you realise they're shit flowers, and theres a whole fucking bouquet of them!

When the shitballs start flying, you've got to get a shitbat Randy!

We're in the eye of a shiticane here Julian, and Ricky's a low shit system!

Do you know what a shit-rope Julian? It's a rope covered with shit that criminals try to hang on to

Randy: Cops and dope don't mix, do they Mr. Lahey?
Mr. Lahey: Like shit and strawberry shortcake, Randy.

Mr. Lahey: What are those fuckers up to?
Randy: Probably goin for some shit-dogs and fries Mr Lahey
Mr. Lahey: Randy, I thought we agreed - no more shit talk til we're back in power

Ricky: Why bother with a couple of shit sticks when you can have the whole shit trawler?
Mr. Lahey: Nice shit analogy Rick

Randy, the shit-pool is getting full. We better strain it, before it overflows and causes a shit-slide that can cover this entire community. I will not have a Pompeiian catastrophe happen in Sunnyvale!

You know, Ricky grew up as a little shit-spark from the old shit-flint. And then he turned into a shit-bonfire and then driven by the winds of his monumental ignorance, he turned into a raging shit-firestorm. If I get to be married to Barb i'll have total control of Sunnyvale, and then I can unleash a shitnami tidal wave that'll engulf Ricky and extinguish his shit-flames forever. And with any luck, he'll drown in the undershit of that wave. Shit-waves.

This is not a problem of factions. This is one person's personality disorder versus the world.

K guys. Time to get organized and stop the bickering.

The way I see it there are four viable options for the Tank at this path:

A) Enforce a warning system at the Tank warning overly personal or offensive posters of a 2 week or longer ban from the Tank.

B) Hide the Tank and require a password or some kind of screening procedure to keep out anybody who doesn't want to put up with the atmosphere.

C) Merge the Tank with General Discussion and put an end to the bickering permanently.

D) Do nothing.


Now--these options will do nothing but arouse several more pages of finger-pointing and bickering, so I think there is only one way to carry out choosing the option.

A poll.

Put those four options in a poll on the Think-Tank and let that be the guide for the Think-Tank's fate.

Otherwise nothing is going to get done and the sharks will continue to feed.

Worm of Despite wrote:K guys. Time to get organized and stop the bickering.

The way I see it there are four viable options for the Tank at this path:

A) Enforce a warning system at the Tank warning overly personal or offensive posters of a 2 week or longer ban from the Tank.

B) Hide the Tank and require a password or some kind of screening procedure to keep out anybody who doesn't want to put up with the atmosphere.

C) Merge the Tank with General Discussion and put an end to the bickering permanently.

D) Do nothing.


Now--these options will do nothing but arouse several more pages of finger-pointing and bickering, so I think there is only one way to carry out choosing the option.

A poll.

Put those four options in a poll on the Think-Tank and let that be the guide for the Think-Tank's fate.

Otherwise nothing is going to get done and the sharks will continue to feed.

I don't like the hidden/password protected, or Deleting the Forum or letting it become a free for all.

I propose the Do Nothing Option. If it can't fix itself, from peer pressure and Mod Pressure as it is (IE: Actually debate the issues, don't hide a weak argument by discouraging a rebuttal with a deliberate provocation or claim a weak rebuttal isn't forthcoming because of a provocation)

If that can't produce a Tank to my Tastes, then I'll stop visiting, because I don't come for the sniping and one-upmanship, I come for the genuine exchange of opposing viewpoints. If enough people are as discouraged as me, if pissing contests don't decrease, then there'll be a small group pissing on each other, if enough believe the pissing contests are necessary (If they continue to dominate) then I'll be on an island of my own disappointment, I'm good either way

*Oh, and, WoD, I seldom have a thread that goes beyond a page or two, lemme rack up the coin, no need to take the party elsewhere this early on (I'm planning on making a donation to someone for a White Gold Ring, if this thread produces enough )

There are a large portion of you who seem hell bent on being free speech regardless of the fact that free speech doesn't rule in a private message board (more like bored with all this bickering). I am here to back up David Williams in anyway possible and agree with everything he is saying except for a few points.

David, please get off the high horse, there are already like six banjo buddies up there!

Guys I know David in real life and think he's a good man, he told me to leave the watch because he said i was ruining the feel. I left and guess what? NO CHANGE, the same bickering. I believe the Watch has grown strained like an island with too few resources and too many hashi lebowls and zarathustras lord of the flies mehhhhhhing around, scrapping off others.

That my friends is why I came back, David apologized to me in person and said that the feel of the watch is the same.

Guys, why are you bickering so much? Aren't you steadfast pal arounds?

Don't you guys tread on light stepped shadows together?

Imagine a big room, let's say it was once a slaughterhouse. But now that room has had all the pens, the hammers the knives and yes even the floor removed. Do you know what is there now? Soil, soil so fine it could be mistaken for sand, it's not however it is soil, ready for the day with the rest of the structure falls and it is exposed to the elements once more.

Do you understand what I am saying? Can one person know everything in the heart of man or even one steady fact? I believe with a bunch of soul searching it is possible.

Zarathustra, Hashi Lebowl, Sidatar and the rest, quit ganging up on Worm of Despite, he's been going through a rough patch in his personal life and you only help in his stress.

I am serious guys, he is really stressed out, stressed out to the point that he called me (which he never does) and told me to read what you all wrote. I find it childish the way everyone is ganging up on him.

Why the chest puffing guys? Let me remind you of something.



Now please, everyone coooooooool down.

This is absurd.

BBF, IMHO, the problem has nothing to do with Hashi Lebwohls, I've never noticed him to dispatch with decorum (Yea, sometimes you wanna smack his smugness , but I've never noticed him to present anything other than his actual opinion, no deflections coming outta his camp)

You may dislike his facts or his interpretation of them, but, I seriously doubt you can point to a "pot stirring" meant to derail a conversation in order to redirect a debate