Kevin's Watch

It seemed like they tried to restore the original world as closely as possible, judging from the epilogue.

Kevin BeerDrinker wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:There are still croyel in the world, as well as the Lurker (I doubt he's really a good guy now.)

The Worm destroyed the world. Covenant/Linden/Jeremiah rebuilt/restored it. But there was no exposition of how they did it. Is it possible that they recreated the world without croyel (and other things)?

It depends whether you think they created the World anew or whether they managed to repair Time, solder together the disparate instants and thus salvage what was there already.

My money's firmly on the latter - despite SRD's churlishness in providing even any sort of hint, let alone description. Otherwise one has to presume that the dynamic trio have ultimate Creator-like powers to create whatever they pleased. If so, why not bring back Liand? Or Galt? Or any of the Star Trek red-shirt Giants? Or anything at all?

I believe in the epilogue, they are somewhat surprised to see their Giant and Haruchai friends still alive, and Infelice says something to the effect of "all who were alive at the time of the world's end live yet." So I gather it's more like Cov/Lind/Jere did the rebuilding of the physical earth and infused it with Earthpower, but are not Creators of life itself -- it was more like all living things must have temporarily gone into some sort of fugue or limbo while the earth was reset.


Granted, that they do get to live doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It kind of takes the teeth out of the concept of the earth being devoured and the arch of time collapsing. As long as you can pick up the pieces behind the Worm, everyone will be fine?

DoriendorCorishev wrote:I believe in the epilogue, they are somewhat surprised to see their Giant and Haruchai friends still alive, and Infelice says something to the effect of "all who were alive at the time of the world's end live yet." So I gather it's more like Cov/Lind/Jere did the rebuilding of the physical earth and infused it with Earthpower, but are not Creators of life itself -- it was more like all living things must have temporarily gone into some sort of fugue or limbo while the earth was reset.


Granted, that they do get to live doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It kind of takes the teeth out of the concept of the earth being devoured and the arch of time collapsing. As long as you can pick up the pieces behind the Worm, everyone will be fine?

everything that happened in the last couple chapters was very vague and rushed IMHO.

Is there any weight to the idea that SWMNBN was in fact Linden, or at least some aspect of her. I always thought she would turn out to be so [as a sort of counterpoint to TC being the Despiser] and I read the passage of her name being revealed very carefully. In it, it could equally be Linden saying 'I am MYSELF' as the Bane - it is only a bit later that we see a sepparation of the possibility, when the passage talks of Linden seeing the Bane [do something or other I guess].

10 most irritating things in the 3rd Chrons:-

1. Linden's navel gazing and whining.
2. All that teleporting and jumping from place to place and time to time.
3. Jeremiah - he's a twat when he's a zombie, and an even worse one when he isn't.
4. Linden and TC getting all mawkish and married and stuff.[choke; I'm fillin' up here]
5. Them crawley things Linden keeps feeling on her skin. Centipedes an' stuff.
6. Kevins Dirt - an excuse for not having to think of anything special about the Land.
7. The happy ending.
8. The boreing old Mount Thunder confrontation again.
9. The 'yoda' speak the Giants [and Haruchai] keep breaking into. [Rest you must have Linden].
10. The Worm, the Raibbow, the beckoning Insequant, the driving rain, the grinning croyel, the staffs black fire, the horses on jeremiah's pyjama's...... the list goes on and on....

Clearly a lot of readers are disappointed and whilst I can see why for the most part, the essence of the reading experience was, for me, still fairly incredible and true to form. SD didn't write for the reader, he wrote for the story itself, as he always has done. And the story itself, in all aspects, holds up well for me.

Having said that, I think that SD made one of two fatal errors. Either AATE was far too long and drawn out and should have included part of the storyline of TLD. Or there should have been a fifth volume. Essentially, SD left himself far too much to do in the last volume and as a result it does, indeed, feel incredibly rushed in places. This is particularly disappointing as allegedly we had to wait so long for the Last Chronicles in the first place because he was honing his writing skills.

Oh, to have access to the first draft of TLD....

Did anybody do a 'clench' count for the book yet?

I would say TLD works best when seen as a direct sequel to AATE, but underwhelms as the climax of entire Chronicles.

I decided partway through AATE that it was best not to think of any of the LC as individual books. None of them is satisfying on their own. It's jarring, because each of the books in the first two chronicles was satisfying on its own. SD said once that he had originally conceived of the Second Chronicles as four books, with the first breaking after the Soothtell, the second after the Elohim shut down TC, the third I assume after the One Tree. I think none of those books as planned would have felt satisfying either. LC may have worked much better as a trilogy, with the first book ending after the Earthblood, the second after the Lost Deep (or maybe the Croyel's death.)

I agree that TLD's internal structure was also too jumpy and ultimately repetitive (including the disappointment of yet another fight through Mt Thunder. For the fourth time in ten books.) To my mind, it would have made sense if the company split at the end, with Linden going to confront She at Mt Thunder and TC and Jeremiah going to confront Foul somewhere near Melunkurion (Gallows Howe?) as he waited for the Worm to do its bit. This way, it could have had a three part structure: TC (Joan to lurker), Linden (Forestal to Fane to She), Jeremiah (to the end.)

That being said: (1) I agree with most of the criticisms of TLD described in this thread; but (2) I still finished this one pretty happy, unlike the previous three. Lowered expectations?

I also agree that yet another fight in Mount Thunder was not the best choice IMO.

After the Creche was destroyed at the end of TPTP, and Foul took up residence in Kiril Threndor, I always assumed that the Last Chronicles would feature him living in another, third location.

pete the ageing savage wrote:Did anybody do a 'clench' count for the book yet?

Nope, but I did notice a couple in Part II

u.

One gripe I'd add is about the Sun. It's a minor point, but it niggled me (especially as it's referenced in the book's title.)

What actually happened to the Sun for most of the book? it went dark, but there was still some change in the light during 'day' time and everyone could still sense the time on some sort of HealthSenseClock. And it never seemed to get cold. At some point in TLD, someone noticed some of this and just guessed that the Sun wasn't wholly gone. But what does that mean?

Ultimately, the Sun disappearing seemed like a gimmick that meant nothing to anyone in the book or to its readers. A few characters go depressed, but everyone else just seemed to get over it. (Yes, I realise that had bigger things on their mind.) Such a contrast to the Sunbane.

As well, I don't quite follow why the Sun had the same fate as all of the stars. Yes, I know the Sun is a star, but the fate as of the stars was clearly tied to the Elohim. I had assumed that a star went out each time an Elohim was consumed by the Worm. Does that mean that the Sun was tied to one Elohim? Who? Not Infelice or Kastennesen, it seems. Wouldn't one of the Elohim have looked at the sky at some point and said: "Oh, I guess the Worm got Bob?"

jeremygans wrote:One gripe I'd add is about the Sun. It's a minor point, but it niggled me (especially as it's referenced in the book's title.)

What actually happened to the Sun for most of the book? it went dark, but there was still some change in the light during 'day' time and everyone could still sense the time on some sort of HealthSenseClock. And it never seemed to get cold. At some point in TLD, someone noticed some of this and just guessed that the Sun wasn't wholly gone. But what does that mean?

Ultimately, the Sun disappearing seemed like a gimmick that meant nothing to anyone in the book or to its readers. A few characters go depressed, but everyone else just seemed to get over it. (Yes, I realise that had bigger things on their mind.) Such a contrast to the Sunbane.

As well, I don't quite follow why the Sun had the same fate as all of the stars. Yes, I know the Sun is a star, but the fate as of the stars was clearly tied to the Elohim. I had assumed that a star went out each time an Elohim was consumed by the Worm. Does that mean that the Sun was tied to one Elohim? Who? Not Infelice or Kastennesen, it seems. Wouldn't one of the Elohim have looked at the sky at some point and said: "Oh, I guess the Worm got Bob?"

I don't think the sun & stars are the same as in the "real" world. I don't think they are balls of hydrogen and helium, billions of miles away. If that's the case, then the sun vanishing over the Land might not be the same as the sun vanishing over our Earth.

What I mean to say is - the temperatures in the Land might not be tied to the sun at all. Similarly, the lightening and darkening of the day don't seem to be 100% due to the sun.

Yeah, I noticed this. It went dark, but that didn't really impinge on the action. Things went on as normal and I basically forgot that the sun was supposed to have gone out.

I haven't really thought about the stars going out that much because I couldn't seem to add it up. If the disappearing stars was the Worm consuming the Elohim then it had to be more metaphorical than literal because the Worm didn't move fast enough to be able to consume individual Elohim at the rate at which the stars were consumed. I still haven't really figured the (meta)physics of this out.

u.

I see where you are coming from HC but I can't really go with it. We have been told in the Creator Myth of the great cosmos in which the Earth was created and [we were led to believe] in the Worm Myth that the Worm was a gigantic being swathing through the Cosmos hoovering up stars like a humpback whale hoovering up krill. I think we have to go with the stars being something like what we understand them to be [or why would Foul want to get out into the cosmos at large if not so he could wreak havok on a cosmic scale]

[u. If you count all the 'clenched', 'clenching' and 'clenches' as well, there were loads. In order to relieve the tedium [sorry about that ] I made a pact with myself that whenever I came across a clench or clench derivative I would speak it aloud and audibly to whoever was in the room. I find the view from my bedroom in the sanatorium most relaxing and do not imagine the sectioning order under which I am held will be in place for any length of time.]

Now that I have finished TLD, I can safely say that the second chronicles still remain my favorite (the Covenant death scene etc still moves me). I found that the TLD was densely written, both on the printed page (my reading speed came down to a crawl) and with with various plot elements etc going on. I'm disappointed that we did not get a chance to explore Lord Foul's backstory, especially with the little scenes we had in AATE.

Now I need to reread the lot and get my creative juices going for the Last Chronicle characters.

pete the ageing savage wrote:I see where you are coming from HC but I can't really go with it. We have been told in the Creator Myth of the great cosmos in which the Earth was created and [we were led to believe] in the Worm Myth that the Worm was a gigantic being swathing through the Cosmos hoovering up stars like a humpback whale hoovering up krill. I think we have to go with the stars being something like what we understand them to be [or why would Foul want to get out into the cosmos at large if not so he could wreak havok on a cosmic scale]

The Creation myth of the universe of the Land is never really clear from the different stories that we hear. I always thought that the Worm would be huge; something on a planetary scale, but thinking about that, would a being even that big be able to consume stars? I'd hazard that this is a case of SRD only giving as much as is necessary for the story and maybe never really having a clear idea of what the Worm actually was until he needed to.

That being the case, the the 'stars' in the sky of the land were never the giant objects that we know, but rather, as they were described in the myth, the bright, shining Children of the Creator (if you haven't seen these threads before check them out [link], [link]).

We meet these 'stars' in a number of different guises across the whole Chrons and in TLD they are tied directly to the Elohim; as the Worm consumes the Elohim the stars go out. There also seems to be direct conection between EarthBlood and the Elohim as they are described as being of the same type of food that the Worm wants. When the Worm consumes the EarthBlood the Arch of Time begins to become undone, so there also seems to be a direct connection between the Worm, the Elohim and the Arch. It's here, however, that I can no longer follow the mobius strip of SRD'd logic. Because, there is a disparity between two realities, the universe of the Land and the cosmos of the Creator.

SWMNBN escapes into the Cosmos of the Creator as the old Arch crumbles, while neither Foul nor the Worm do. (I have hypothesised in the past that Foul and the Worm are one.) It seems the Arch's sole purpose is to house the world of the Land, not another universe as might seem likely. In this case even the sun and the moon of the Land may not be what we think they are. Yes, they behave like the ones we know, but in the place contained within the Arch they may be more metaphoric and figurative than we had thought. hence, the ability of the sun to darken as it does in the book.

There a couple of heavyweights who have yet to weigh in on this discussion and, I've no doubt, that there are plenty more interesting things to be said on the issue.

u.

Of course the rules in this world and different to our, but distance is still important. Without it nothing makes sense. I think it' safe to assume that even if the stars are not giant hydrogen fusion factories, they are far away, and powerful. The Worm can travel great distances by necessity, and face powerful beings.

Condign wrote:Of course the rules in this world and different to our, but distance is still important. Without it nothing makes sense. I think it' safe to assume that even if the stars are not giant hydrogen fusion factories, they are far away, and powerful. The Worm can travel great distances by necessity, and face powerful beings.

I would dispute that. The stars of the Land seem closer than the stars of our universe. Closer, smaller, and somehow tied to individual Elohim.

We were told in TOT that the Worm, sated with consuming stars, curled itself into a ball and slept. During the course of it's multi-millenia long slumber the 'excresence' it exuded hardened and formed into the Earth. Also that if awakened, it would uncurl itself and slough off the 'excresence' like leaves off a sleeping bear. The implication here is definitely one of size rather than petitness. I had not imagined the Worm of the Worlds End to be the size of a common garden annelid. Donaldson seemed to change the goalposts as he went along in the third Chrons and [IMNSHO] this made for bad reading. The size distance issue you refer to HC is like a form of ratiocination you have to build in order to make the third Chrons work. I am reminded of Lucifer in Miltons 'Paradise Lost' who set his minnions to work by the thousand to build the mighty citidel of 'Pandemonium'. But in order to expedite the process he shrunk every body, including himself down to the size of toy soldiers. 'Pandemonium' when it was finished, was 18 inches tall.

pete the ageing savage wrote:We were told in TOT that the Worm, sated with consuming stars, curled itself into a ball and slept. During the course of it's multi-millenia long slumber the 'excresence' it exuded hardened and formed into the Earth. Also that if awakened, it would uncurl itself and slough off the 'excresence' like leaves off a sleeping bear. The implication here is definitely one of size rather than petitness...

Yes, this is definitely the idea I had about the Worm too. However, in TLD there seems to be a direct connection between the Worm and the Arch and the world of the Land, a connection that I had not conceived of previously.* I can now accept that the world formed around the Worm, but not in the way I'd thought. That the Worm and the Arch are intimately connected makes an important difference and allows possibilities that I wouldn't have considered before. I'm still in the process of working this out, so there is some joy in these ears

u.

* And wasn't Lord Foul supposed to have white gold in his possession to survive the collapse of the Arch?