Kevin's Watch

TheFallen wrote: Let me state for the record that, when it comes to matters SRD at least, I absolutely do NOT include you in this bracket. Whereas I may differ in opinion from you on occasion when it comes to TCoTC - although not that often, frankly - IMO you always express yourself clearly, fairly and cogently, usually with a host of well-researched and quoted references. I have a huge deal of respect for such an approach - it's a shame other more fervent LC advocates take a far more hubristic, confrontational and dismissive position.

Well said.

TheFallen wrote:... it seems to be a majority consensus from what I can gather, and people absolutely should be allowed to express whatever reaction or opinion they've had upon finishing TLD. Let's face it, we're all informed readers who are invested in the Chrons, or else we wouldn't be here and posting.

The underlined portion interested me, so I checked Amazon, Amazon UK, Barnes & Nobles, and even Goodreads, and it actually appears as if the majority consensus is heavily weighted to four stars... so the majority of people who feel compelled to share their opinion on the internet appear to be in the consensus that though this is not a perfect book, it is still a pretty good book.

People severely disappointed in it are in a significant minority, but it appears that most people who have read it do not post on the Watch!

TheFallen wrote:But complaining that the 50 or so negative topics are boring? That's a step too far, I think...

Good thing no one has done that, then. Reread.

Go look at what has been posted. Based on the number of posts, no one is having any problems posting their negative comments, and they are by and large well received and hear-heared. And based on the number of posts, almost no one is having a positive discussion that doesn't spiral into negativity. I leave it to you to decide who's fair use is being suppressed here.

When you finally join what seems like a constructive discussion, and then as if by concerted effort all the usual suspects come out to say all the usual things and troll for all the usual things and suck the life out of it -- yet again -- it is very frustrating.

And, finally, when "boring" is a comment "too far", but "narcissistic" is a-ok and un-remarked, then it very much looks like it's not about the comment at all, but about how much you want to antagonize the one who says it, doesn't it?

wayfriend wrote:

TheFallen wrote:But complaining that the 50 or so negative topics are boring? That's a step too far, I think...

Good thing no one has done that, then. Reread.

Fair point - not "boring" but "frustrating"... mea culpa.

wayfriend wrote:Go look at what has been posted. Based on the number of posts, no one is having any problems posting their negative comments, and they are by and large well received and hear-heared.

And as I am sure you'd agree, there's nothing wrong with that - it's called "consensus", or as Cambo said, "synchronicity". There is clearly a substantial number of KW members who are to some extent disappointed with the LCs and TLD in particular... disappointed enough to bother posting.

wayfriend wrote:And based on the number of posts, almost no one is having a positive discussion that doesn't spiral into negativity. I leave it to you to decide who's fair use is being suppressed here.

Well, hang on a second. Looking at this specific thread started by Cambo, it seemed to me that it was all about his dissatisfaction with TLD once he'd finally finished it. I believe strongly that the slant and tone of any given thread is (and should be) set by its creator, hence this particular one is a disappointed one. Nothing wrong with that - Cambo, as with all of us, is utterly entitled to set out his experiential reactions to having read TLD and other members are utterly entitled to weigh in with their opinions on said subject. I did exactly that (for reasons set out below) and, according to the thread author, seemed to manage to express how and why he felt as he did in more crystallised form. The fact that Cambo has only just finished TLD is slightly unusual, but so what? So has Jay, who also started a topic expressing elements that he also found less than wonderful. Again, there's nothing wrong with that.

wayfriend wrote:When you finally join what seems like a constructive discussion, and then as if by concerted effort all the usual suspects come out to say all the usual things and troll for all the usual things and suck the life out of it -- yet again -- it is very frustrating.

I'd actually agree with you, were your example to have revolved round a positively started thread, which naysayers then all piled in upon. But this clearly is an opposite example to that. This was (admittedly again) a less than satisfied thread. What brought me into the discussion was seeing the truly "usual suspect-ish", overweeningly supercilious and arrogantly aggressive condescension from Lurch, with his "if only you were smarter/more open/less masochistic like I am, you'd realise the wonders" schtick. Such hubris is deeply unpleasant and uncalled-for. The sole attempted thread twisting here (given its dissatisfaction-slanted origin) lay blatantly clearly in his several posts. I reserve my right to call what I see as such uncalled-for unpleasantness out.

Oh and for the sake of avoiding discord, I'm going to ignore the tacit accusation that "the usual suspects" - of which I suspect you may consider me one - come out "as if by concerted effort" and "troll" - I don't believe that anyone here is petty enough to do such and relish such Schadenfreude. It's with respect demeaning (and dare I say it, a little paranoid) to suggest that people only operate - and in organised unison - to such banal motives.

You would however have a point if naysayers invariably dived into positively started threads in an effort to twist them into abject negativity. I'm unsure if that happens - these days I usually don't bother posting in TLD forums, because I've said my piece; my position is clear as is my interpretation of the work's underlying metaphysics. I therefore tend to leave areas such as chapter dissections alone, unless someone says something specific that is to me so flagrantly bizarre that I am inspired to put my POV forward (the assertion that the haruchai represented pure logic being the only example that I can recall).

wayfriend wrote:And, finally, when "boring" is a comment "too far", but "narcissistic" is a-ok and un-remarked, then it very much looks like it's not about the comment at all, but about how much you want to antagonize the one who says it, doesn't it?

I never understood that entire brief exchange between you and Orlion, frankly. I wasn't sure why you thought anyone was "defecating" on anyone else's opinions in the first place - the only initial acrimony I could see, having re-read this thread three or four times was Lurch with his self-appointed messianic "aaah grasshopper - it's you with the problem" routine, but I seriously doubt that's what you were referring to. So I have no idea as to what caused your initial offence, if that's the right word - and I suspect that it's a matter for the two of you alone.

I've been following this thread with dismay for the last while. I was delighted to see Cambo back on the Watch and disappointed to see his thread degenerate into the usual bickering.

While I understand the impulse to object to a style of posting that you strongly disagree with, I don't really see the point of it in this thread. Cambo is a long-term member of the forum, so he is well able to hold his ground and put his own opinions across (as he has admirably demonstrated upthread). He is not some newbie who may be getting a one-sided impression of peoples' attitude to the LCs.

I applaud and support the idea of protecting new members from being over-exposed to a particular style of posting or to a singular vision of what the Chrons can mean. When I first joined, Z intervened to support my right to hold and express whatever opinion I happened to have in relation to the LCs. I very much appreciated it at the time and as a newbie I felt affirmed and valued.

However, once attention has been drawn to a style of posting that is found objectionable the main purpose has been achieved. After that it is up to the individual posters to choose how they respond. Getting caught up in some sort of tit-for-tat 'you started it' back-and-forth, IMO, serves no purpose and risks seriously detracting from the actual topic of the thread.

u.