Kevin's Watch

Hashi Lebwohl wrote: rather, the problem exists inside your mind--somewhere along the way, someone or something made you feel uncomfortable with yourself and deciding that you are trans is the expression of that discomfort. In other words, if you don't like yourself as a male you aren't going to fundamentally like yourself as a female, either--you are still you inside your mind.

If you believe that, you need to look at the latest research.

I also find it a little odd that you would think that a persons identity is really determined by visible bodily characteristics, and not their minds [completely ignoring the problem that the brain you have is ALSO a bodily thing.]
There simply isn't a hard dichotomy, any set line...just varying commonality/prevalence.

You're worried that they might just lie, and we have to trust them...
I have to tell you that a manly man [or teen] willing to try to fool everyone...friends, family, society...into thinking he's got a gender conflict, and put up with all the problems that causes, in order to see naked girls [and MOST of the time, he won't be seeing any nakedness...he'll just find himself forced to confront the fact that girls pee, poop, and fart, too...and it's just as messy and stinky for them as it is for boys/men] has WAY worse mental problems than someone who really does have a conflict.

[[none of the other pretending schemes/patterns/dangers make any more sense, though the specifics may vary]].

If one is worried about sexual violations and vulnerabilities, one should move the transgender stranger school/public worry to the bottom of the anxiety page---and move to the top and bold-face born gender relatives and friends at home/private.

Hmmm, although I have a certain sympathy for Hashi's point of view there, I do think that it isn't necessarily true.

In fact, I would guess that people who attempt to switch genders because they don't like themselves are perhaps not "genuine" transgenders. (And any psych evaluation should be able to pick that up.)

--A

Interestingly enough there is some science to back up Hashi's stance on this.

From a long term study
20% regret changing genders, over 40% attempt suicide, and even after surgery. Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism.

Now that doesnt mean that the surgery didnt help at all but it does show that it doesnt 'fix' the underlying issue that even with surgery, they still have feelings of 'transsexualism' or not feeling like they are in the right body.

I absolutely refuse to play along with people's mental illness. If you've got a dick, you're a man. If you cut your dick off, you're a man who's cut his dick off. Don't expect me to indulge your fantasy.

That said, I have no issues with unisex bathrooms.

You can now be failed in classes at Washington State for using words the professor deems offensive, such as, "male," "female," and "illegal immigrant."

This insanity is why Trump is leading in the polls. People are sick of political correctness. This goes beyond trying to respect others. The Left is trying to force its opinions on the rest of us by attaining positions of power and then punishing those who disagree. They are trying to change our culture and norms, our values and even common sense to fit their own warped view of "truth."

I AM male, goddamnit! That's the truth!

I can't imagine being a college student in today's liberal-controlled universities. There's nothing offensive about my gender! I have every right to use this word as a man has a right to wear a dress.

I have to agree. I will NOT stop using gender pronouns because .0001% of our society isnt comfortable in their own skin.

That group is gonna keep pushing and eventually people are going to start pushing back. I think Z is right. That is probably why Trump is doing so well in the polls. The 'tyranny of the minority' has people pretty well ticked off.

SoulBiter wrote:...The 'tranny of the minority' has people pretty well ticked off.

Fixed that for you, SB, but it does mean that you have lost a point for that post!

u.

ussusimiel wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:...The 'tranny of the minority' has people pretty well ticked off.

Fixed that for you, SB, but it does mean that you have lost a point for that post!

u.

Tranny.. short for transmission....

yeah I didnt buy that either. '

It's freaking Orwellian, forcing people to deny reality in favor of propaganda.

Reality? We make it up as we go along.

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of things like being expelled for using offensive words, (I doubt it would stand up), how does it affect your life? Or anybody here's life?

Are any of you frequently in situations where you are forced to choose to insult/upset somebody by referring to them by their birth gender?

--A

Avatar wrote: Are any of you frequently in situations where you are forced to choose to insult/upset somebody by referring to them by their birth gender?

--A

That's probable a fairly influential part of it.
I know a couple that I see fairly frequently now where pronoun choice might matter [I know what they prefer...I don't know how offended, if at all, they'd be if I chose the other one]...have known perhaps a couple dozen over the years.

Someone somewhere said something about white guys talking about race based on watching TV from comfy chairs. But I've lived and worked in those communities in the past. And I have relatives in various shades of white, yellow, red, and brown.

I'm sure the treatment of them I've witnessed has some influence.
Some might say [and sometimes they'd be right, perhaps] that the personal 'involvement' makes it emotional/not rational or similar.

That ignores the other thing---that having personal, direct experience can give one access to more/different/new facts and evidence.

It would probably take a lot of effort and data to prove it---but I'd bet anything that SSM didn't surge in approval so quickly primarily because people suddenly decided out of the blue to sit down and think about it rationally.
I'd bet it happened cuz people started "coming out" so lots of other people started interacting with LGB people in their own lives more often and more openly---and this illuminated new facts, new evidence. Like that gay people are not the ugly inherently evil perverts they'd always been told about. And THAT made them rethink the rationale around marriage in a more rational way.

Could be.

As far as I'm concerned, it costs me nothing to refer to somebody with the pronoun they prefer. And not only does it cost me nothing, it makes them feel better too. Therefore generally improving the state of the world and humanity.

--A

my concern is that they are letting children decide they are transgender and they go about giving them hormones as a teen.

you are letting people who do not have the ability to reason in the long term to make life altering decisions. this is insanity.

and we have kids suing because they want to use bathrooms meant for the opposite gender.

Avatar wrote:Could be.

As far as I'm concerned, it costs me nothing to refer to somebody with the pronoun they prefer. And not only does it cost me nothing, it makes them feel better too. Therefore generally improving the state of the world and humanity.

--A

It costs you nothing for other people to force you to use false language in contradiction with reality in order to participate in their personal delusions? Really?

It would "cost you nothing" to start referring to pro-choice as pro-baby-killing. It would make me feel better, too. Will you do it?

sgt.null wrote:my concern is that they are letting children decide they are transgender and they go about giving them hormones as a teen.

you are letting people who do not have the ability to reason in the long term to make life altering decisions. this is insanity.

and we have kids suing because they want to use bathrooms meant for the opposite gender.

Ridiculously young children... as in, they have barely begun to develop cognitive abilities.

There is a difference between a allowing a boy to wear pink and deciding for them that they should have hormone therapy. And that's what you are doing as a parent, deciding for them. They are developmentally and legally incapable of making that choice, and some parents have decided that they will never have the opportunity to make that choice. That's wrong and a violation of the parent's responsibility for their child.

This rare agreement in the Tank between Orlion and sgt null is brought to you by Burger King: Have it your way.

Orlion wrote:

sgt.null wrote:my concern is that they are letting children decide they are transgender and they go about giving them hormones as a teen.

you are letting people who do not have the ability to reason in the long term to make life altering decisions. this is insanity.

and we have kids suing because they want to use bathrooms meant for the opposite gender.

Ridiculously young children... as in, they have barely begun to develop cognitive abilities.

There is a difference between a allowing a boy to wear pink and deciding for them that they should have hormone therapy.

Yea, I'll go ahead and agree, too, when it comes to the physical/chemical alterations.
People aren't even fully human till at least the late teens...let alone set/self-knowing of identity.
Not approving of that intervention, however does not mean I support:
"You are a boy, dammit. Now before school you're gonna go out and kill something, and after school you're going to go nail a cheerleader. You're gonna try out for teams, not the school musical, your gonna study World War generals, not Walt Whitman."

Zarathustra wrote:It costs you nothing for other people to force you to use false language in contradiction with reality in order to participate in their personal delusions? Really?

It would "cost you nothing" to start referring to pro-choice as pro-baby-killing. It would make me feel better, too. Will you do it?

Sure, I have no problem referring to it as baby killing if it makes you feel better. It can certainly be argued that that is really what it boils down to, and we know that some types of killing are ok, it's just a matter of deciding which ones.

As for the other, they're not forcing me, it's only false according to a specific perspective, (by others it is true), and it only contradicts what you define as reality. Which, as I've said before, I consider pretty malleable. Same goes for whether it's a delusion. In some senses, everything anybody believes is a delusion of a sort.

I don't personally experience any internal conflict or angst over using somebodies preference for themselves in personal pronouns. What you want to call yourself is effectively meaningless to me.

Why should it be otherwise? I'm not serving some noble purpose by insisting on a genetically accurate pronoun. Indeed, I might argue it is a fairly petty purpose. *shrug*

--A

Hashi - what did you expect? Obama took time out from congratulating the Bomb-Hoax Kid to once again tell us that legal/law-abiding citizens are to blame for the insane/evil Oregon shooter and every gun death that has ever happened. and by gum, he's going to do something about it this time. we will be as safe as his adopted hometown of Chicago.

because of the gun show loophole (doesn't exist), assault weapons (no such thing), automatic weapons (already out of most everyone's hands already) failure to register guns.

of course every gun I have bought required the dealer to run my name and make sure I was not a wanted felon. and I have bought at gun shows, retail stores, gun stores and pawn shops. not sure where else I could by a gun.