Kevin's Watch

Lord Foul wrote: Let's start with your town, whoever you are.

ROTFLMAO!!!

dANdeLION wrote:I heard last night on the news that the people of Spain voted out their leaders because they sided with the US against terrorism. If this is true, I hope they understand that terrorism won't go away because of their vote.

This is a victory for the terrorists. The people of Spain reacted out of fear. It's certainly their right to elect their leaders but IMO it's the wrong decision. They should've instead gotten behind the leaders in power and re-elected them, sending a clear message that the terrorists' actions won't change their resolve.

Well, we don't know for sure that Spain would have acted differently if the bombings hadn't happened, but I'm sure that the terrorists see it this way.

I heard on CNN last weekend that the socialists were not expected to win.

Ahhh, cable. I have not allowed that to invade my house yet. Very well.

This week's sign of the Apocalypse: Dan doesn't have cable.

Cable? Bah!

Hi. My name is Syl (as a group: Hi, Syl). I haven't had cable in about a year.

It's hard to stay away, but then I look around at all my friends who have cable, look at their lives ruined by rapidly decreasing variety and quality while continuing to pay for it... It makes me glad I quit.

I have a satellite dish, actually.

C'mon guys, a little boob tube never hurt anyone.

I have a dish too. It came with the house. I haven't had it hooked up. I agree, a little boob tube doesn't hurt. But a lot is a different story.....

I think I remember that most of the Spanish population was against the war on Iraq in the build-up to the war, so I don't know how resolved they were to go to Iraq in the first place, or if they saw attack Iraq as attacking terrorism. The bombings almost certainly affected the election (if not the victor then the margin of victory), but the way the government handled the first couple days afterwards also affected it. They maintained the ETA was the main suspect, making it appear that they were trying to cover up any Middle East / religious radical connection, which cheesed many Spaniards off. Terrorism won't go away because they elected someone new, but Israel's been sending clear messages to terrorists for decades, and those terrorists haven't gone away either. I don't know what the solution is, but Aliantha was right, "It's not that simple."

As for the question of better education to prevent people from deciding to adopt radical beliefs and terrorism, I'd add to good education (many who become terrorists attended radical Saudi Arabian schools, which breed that kind of hate and which the oppressive Saudi regime allows to exist) having a decent country to live in with opportunity and hope. Not that education or opportunity would erase terrorism, but couldn't hurt.

W.B. wrote:I think I remember that most of the Spanish population was against the war on Iraq in the build-up to the war, so I don't know how resolved they were to go to Iraq in the first place, or if they saw attack Iraq as attacking terrorism. The bombings almost certainly affected the election (if not the victor then the margin of victory), but the way the government handled the first couple days afterwards also affected it. They maintained the ETA was the main suspect, making it appear that they were trying to cover up any Middle East / religious radical connection, which cheesed many Spaniards off. Terrorism won't go away because they elected someone new, but Israel's been sending clear messages to terrorists for decades, and those terrorists haven't gone away either. I don't know what the solution is, but Aliantha was right, "It's not that simple."

You are correct W.B. Estimates say that almost 90% of the population was against going to war with Iraq. I also think it is safe to say that Spaniards perceive that the War on Iraq and the War on Terrorism (WOT) are two unrelated causes. I myself disagree. I mourn for the Spanish victims but I don’t approve of their actions at that polls in response to the terror attack (not that they care much about what I think anyway but I thought I’d add that all the same). I think we (the civilized world as opposed to the terrorists) have lost a battle in Spain and an ally in the WOT.

The facts are: The PP government was polling ahead of the socialists on Wednesday. The terrorists attacked on Thursday. The Government engaged in wishful thinking and spin control on Friday placing suspicion on the ETA. On Saturday, the PP government released the only credible claim for the attack which contained both explicit and implicit threats of further attacks if Spain did not “Do The Right Thing”. The people voted on Sunday to remove the incumbent government in favor of one sworn to end Spain's involvement in Iraq.

We could argue over why the Spanish electorate voted the way did but, IMHO, that is a meaningless and academic exercise. You state that Israel has been sending a clear message for decades but has not Israel been restrained by the democratic west and their very own democratic ideals? Palestine knows that Israel is restrained and thus Israel will only respond to terror attacks with limited reprisals allowing the terrorists to play victim. If Israel applied it’s full military might to the Palestinian terror issue and sent a truly unambiguous and clear message, a message that terror will result in total war waged with extreme prejudice, we would have no need to discuss the terrorist response because there would be none left.

What occurred in Spain is a national manifestation of a liberal creed that states that if a government can focus enough attention and diplomacy on a problem, any problem, whatever it is, then a nation or a society can compromise its way out of having to make difficult and often distasteful choices. Spain has fallen under this spell. With enough attention and finesse to the finest details, and with enough compromises in their willingness to confront the problem directly themselves, or to even ally themselves with nations who are willing to confront these difficult issues head on, they themselves can avoid the nasty problems and the difficult decisions to be made in dealing successfully with terrorism and its assault upon their own society and civilization. In other words, let someone else do the dirty work if any needs to be done.

I'll conclude by asking one question:

Based upon the results of this attack, what conclusions do the terrorists draw?

IMHO, they attacked and got the results they wanted. This is success and that means that they will do this more and more in the future to influence the political results in Europe and possibly even the US. In other words, regardless of the Spanish electorates real intent at the ballot box, they have just assured the terrorists that Spanish elections and government are susceptible to violence, murder and intimidation. When confronted with violence as intimidation it doesn't matter why you let it change your mind only that it does change your mind.

Terrorists societies lack a middle class. They typically have only the very rich and the very poor. Perhaps an effective means of creating a middle class would help end terrorism at least for some societies.

bump-(too important a thread to have on page 2-move me to Think Tank)

Housekeeping today eh Danlo?

Thanks for the bump.

I must admit, when I saw your name on the last reply in this thread I was looking forward to reading your views on the subject as they are often diametrically opposed to my own. If you have the time I'm interested in your opinion. Talk to you soon.

I don't know if I have an opinion at this time--too many wild rumors flying around all of a sudden. You have this "new" Sept 2000 Osama Bin Laden tape coming out insinuating the Clinton & Bush administrations were warned well in advance. And the recent Bagdad hotel bombing which may be linked to the Zaragosa/Madrid bombings ( on the 11th, btw...) if so it shows a possible Al-queda link going straight though the Iraqi informant who's slated the head the country's new coalition government? That's just plain crazy...