Kevin's Watch

Furls irked at cookies wrote:God does not make my choices for me. He shows me the path He wishes for me to take, and "I" CHOOSE to take it. I could easily just turn my back on His guidance and plan for me, and choose to live my life differently. Ah, but you know, I would not feel the joy of His light and presence in my heart if I did that.

Darth, I never once tried to "prove" God's existance to you. I simply didn't want you to try and prove His non-existance to me. Believe or don't believe...the choice is yours. But, many times you have said to me, "I wish I had the faith you have." "I wish I could believe like you do." That is why I kept pointing you to Stephen. It was never to "prove" anything to you. It was just to guide you to Him, because Stephen help many others find their way to God and Jesus. And, as I said before, I can't "prove" anything to you. My faith was born in me, my heart and soul were consumed by the Holy Spirit when I was a very small child. And, it wasn't through any church teaching, or Bible reading either. It was just THERE, my friend. It's there in everyone...but sometimes very hard to find. Fist has it, tho he sees it differently, but he has it. Danlo has it, Duchy has it, Brinn has it...YOU have it Darth. I know you don't think you do, but just by all your questionings, all your inquiries, even your desire for "proof" shows you have it in your heart. Read Stephen, he'll help you find it.

I will say this too. When Isaiah came to me, he had no faith in God. He believed God sentenced him to a living hell, by making him homosexual and then by placing him within a family and community would despised him for what he was. He also thought he was being punished for being homosexual when he contracted AIDS. He never felt love, or support, or caring...just hate. All because of the way God made him. So, he did not feel any love or belief in God. Then, miraculously, by the Hand of God Himself, Isaiah found his way here, then to me, and ultimately to Stephen. By the time Isaiah passed, his faith had been restored, his heart was full of love, and his soul held God's peace. Isaiah passed knowing he was loved, knowing he was not an abomination, and knowing that there IS "also love in the world".

I do not believe for one second that all of that was coinicidence. It has happened too many times in my life and in Stephen's life for it to be. Stephen was a doorway, and liason if you will. God sent him people all the time. These people dreamt of him, heard his name whispered in their sleep. They sought him out not even knowing why. And Darth, that is NOT opinion, that is FACT.

You say you would believe Him if He came to you and told you who He was. Well, He can't do that if you refuse to listen for Him.

Fist wrote:Despite my BA in Music History, and years of piano lessons, I cannot do any of this. I have NO idea how they do it; no idea what they hear that I do not. AFAIK, nobody has ever been able to detect anything, no matter what kind of machinery or electronics the use, that explains it. Some people can hear it, and most cannot. I've often wondered why Mozart didn't just write all of his piano pieces in C-major, so he (and we) wouldn't have to bother with as many black keys. What's the point in composing a sonata in A-flat? It makes no sense, other than for the sake of appearing sophisticated, eh? **BUT** Mozart heard every note, every chord, in ways I do not. What did he hear?? What is there that might make it preferable for a certain melody, and its harmonies, to be put in A-flat instead of C?? It's nonsense

Stephen could do this Big surprise, huh?

And Darth, that is NOT opinion, that is FACT.

Furls irked at cookies wrote:Stephen could do this Big surprise, huh?

duchess of malfi wrote:What matters for all of us is what we learn from our pain. Do we become bitter at the world and at each other or do we learn compassion from such experiences?

This is an important point. In many ways, humans are defined by our struggles. What would the world be like without any struggle? If the air's temperature was perfectly matched to our bodies', if nobody ever got sick, if everybody had every answer they ever needed, if, if, if... We'd get up every day, do the same thing every day, go to bed each night... That's more than boring, that's a meaningless existence. Our meaning comes from our struggles.

Nathan wrote:

I wrote:This is an important point. In many ways, humans are defined by our struggles. What would the world be like without any struggle? If the air's temperature was perfectly matched to our bodies', if nobody ever got sick, if everybody had every answer they ever needed, if, if, if... We'd get up every day, do the same thing every day, go to bed each night... That's more than boring, that's a meaningless existence. Our meaning comes from our struggles.

Very true, indeed everything you're saying (and others are saying) seems to have merit, it all makes sense, it all makes a point. The one thing it fails to do is prove the existence (or, assuming he does exist, his worthiness) of God. All of the things you (and others) say can still be true in a world where no God exists.

Fist and Faith wrote:Darth, let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists. Assuming you meet Him, how will you tell him things should be? What's the best way for a reality to be?

Fire Daughter wrote:Darth, you took what my mother said out of context. When she said "that is not opinion, it is fact." she was refering to people being pulled to my Uncle Steve. And there is definately proof of that happening. There are about 100 mini tape recorder tapes that have conversations on them between my uncle and these people. And though they all come from different places, and are from different backgrounds, there is one thing they have in common. They saw my Uncle in their dreams, and set out to find him.

Oh, and God didn't make him sick. HIV tainted blood made him sick. God gave him the strength to live his life richly and fully. Uncle Steve never blamed God for his sickness, Uncle Steve thanked God for his life and accepted what he needed too.

Ur-Vile wrote:Careful, Darth. According to Christians, their God doesn't do that - Satan does.

Ur-Vile wrote:Darth are you in a bad mood or what? have some respect for the members who respect you. leave off trying to pull apart their religion.

Darth Revan wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Darth, let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists. Assuming you meet Him, how will you tell him things should be? What's the best way for a reality to be?

Bah, I wouldn't tell him anything... I would just ask him why he created humans in the first place? Why create us the way we are, and then set 10 rules we must abide by, despite the fact that YOU made us able to brake these "Commandments?"

Caer Sylvanus wrote:If you believe that a man can devote himself to the improvement of himself and society but still go to hell because he doesn't believe in Jay-ee-zus...

Caer Sylvanus wrote:Bruce obviously wasn't much of a sci-fi or fantasy fan. I mean the whole prayer bit. You're omnipotent, man. Create a temporary copy of yourself for each prayer that as soon as the prayer is answered (positively or negatively as the case requires) reassimilates into yourself. Sure, you might need to create alternate dimensions to house all these selfs, but that couldn't be that hard for an omnipotent being.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Darth Revan wrote:We're having two different conversations here. You are entirely devoted to a specific Judeo/Christian tradition. By "devoted," I mean that is the only one you can conceive of, despite all the things some people (Cate is a good example) and I have been saying. And so when I say, "How will you tell God things should be," you can only respond to that concept of God.

What I'm talking about, however, is simply a creator that we don't have to define at all. You're saying that the world has so much wrong with it, which you consider evidence against a creator. After all, if it was intentionally designed, why so badly? So I'm asking how you would improve it, and what you would say if it turns out there IS a creator, and you meet this being. What I'm getting at is a Bruce Almighty idea. Bruce constantly complained that God was stupid, and did it all wrong. So God gave Bruce the same power that He had, and told him to do what he wanted. Fix things. It turns out that there isn't a better system than the one we have.

Now, of course, I'm not saying that the fact that we couldn't come up with a better universe - one that does away with the bad without doing away with the things that are most important to us - is evidence of any creator. I'm just saying that the things we don't like about the universe are not evidence that there isn't a creator.

Can I ask you people a question? I was wondering, considering you believe in God... You prebably believe that God has this plan for us all That would mean, really, that we're nothing but a clot of sheep walking around doing the things that he wanted doing? Does anyone seriously believe that?

There was a Master come unto the earth, born in the holy land of Indiana, raised in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne.

The Master learned of this world in the public schools of Indiana, and as he grew, in his trade as a mechanic of automobiles.

[I’ll skip the parts about him becoming known far and wide, being a healer, and all that. Only several paragraphs, but no need for this post. Great book, though, so go read it!! ]

And it came to pass when he saw that the multitude thronged him the more day on day, tighter and closer and fiercer than ever they had, when he saw that they pressed him to heal them without rest, and feed them always with his miracles, to learn for them and to live their lives, he went alone that day unto a hilltop apart, and there he prayed.

And he said in his heart, Infinite Radiant Is, if it be thy will, let this cup pass from me, let me lay aside this impossible task. I cannot live the life of one other soul, yet ten thousand cry to me for life. I’m sorry I allowed it all to happen. If it be thy will, let me go back to my engines and my tools and let me live as other men.

And a voice spoke to him on the hilltop, a voice neither male nor female, loud nor soft, a voice infinitely kind. And the voice said unto him, “Not my will, but thine be done. For what is thy will is mine for thee. Go thy way as other men, and be thou happy on the earth.”

And hearing, the Master was glad, and gave thanks, and came down from the hilltop humming a little mechanic’s song. And when the throng pressed him with its woes, beseeching him to heal for it and learn for it and feed it nonstop from his understanding and to entertain it with his wonders, he smiled upon the multitude and said pleasantly unto them, “I quit.”

For a moment the multitude was stricken dumb with astonishment.

And he said unto them, “If a man told God that he wanted most of all to help the suffering world, no matter the price to himself, and God answered and told him what he must do, should the man do as he is told?”

“Of course, Master!” cried the many. “It should be pleasure for him to suffer the tortures of hell itself, should God ask it!”

“No matter what those tortures, nor how difficult the task?”

“Honor to be hanged, glory to be nailed to a tree and burned, if so be that God has asked,” they said.

“And what would you do,” the Master said unto the multitude, “if God spoke directly to your face and said, ‘I COMMAND THAT YOU BE HAPPY IN THE WORLD, AS LONG AS YOU LIVE.’ What would you do then?”

And the multitude was silent, not a voice, not a sound was heard upon the hillsides, across the valleys where they stood.

And the Master said unto the silence, “In the path of our happiness shall we find the learning for which we have chosen this lifetime. So it is that I have learned this day, and choose to leave you now to walk your own path, as you please.”

And he went his way through the crowds and left them, and he returned to the everyday world of men and machines.

Fist and Faith wrote:Since I don’t claim to know one way or the other whether there even is any god/God/creator, I couldn’t very well believe that such a being has a plan for us, eh? But let me throw this “plan” at you. From Richard Bach’s Illusions:

...And hearing, the Master was glad, and gave thanks, and came down from the hilltop humming a little mechanic’s song.