What's the most unsettling part of the Chronicles?

Post by JD » Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:03 am

Passer By makes a good point. Covenant is always trying to make himself not responsible, or trying to get others to use power to save himself. He did it with Elena, the Rayhyn and numerous others in the first 3 books.

Post by **hamako** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:54 pm

I have to agree with passerby, the whole Elena/Covenant relationship shows what an utter bastard (couldn't think of a better or more accurate decsription) TC could be. I remember reading the whole bargain section and being astounded that he a) though of it and b) could carry it out. Couple that with the fact that this process ended the service of the Bloodguard as well.....TC at his lowest I think.

I think that this betrayal/exploitation of Elena was far worse than raping Lena. Possibly it's the same thing, he physically raped Lena and then goes on to morally and mentally violate/ruin Lena. One of the singularly nost pivotal events of the books, the betrayal and fall of Elena.

Full marks TC, that's a bad one.

Post by **Treble** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:32 pm

TC rapes Lena....the land itself becomes a victim of fundamental rape over thousands of years, all because of that single act. Horribly plausible (in the scheme of things, and the cause and effect SRD applies) and haunts you throughout six entire novels.

Passer-by · Post by **Passer-by** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:28 pm

I'd agree with Hamako, betraying/exploiting Elena is worse than the rape because it's premeditated. Covenant makes a reasoned, conscious choice, and he knows what he's doing, if not what the extent of the repercussions will be, and he does it anyway. Good also to point out that his worst act has some of the worst results, such as the Bloodguard resigning.

Notable, also, is that using/manipulating/controling someone else's will--rape, the Elena thing, the Ravers, possession in the Second Chronicles--is one of the ultimate evils in the books. In a way, Lord Foul is the best at this; he uses characters' intentions for his own means, which is just a more subtle version of other manipulations. He's a sophisticated, talented, devious manipulator/user, which seems to be a big component of what's "evil," or that was the idea I got, anyway.

GSG · Post by **GSG** » Fri May 02, 2003 2:22 pm

There's lots of disturbing stuff in the Chronicles, but for me it all pales beside Lena's rape. She cures him of his leprosy, he rapes her, she continues to help him even as the blood from her hymen is spilling. After raping Lena, Covenant goes to her parents, eats their food and is a guest in their house. All without shame.

Now I know that Covenant has decided that these people aren't real, and that their feelings don't matter, and that he was mad with lust after being cured; even if you take all that into consideration it is harsh. Those few chapters are the harshest thing I read in my teenage years and still rank up as the most disturbing non-fiction. Everything that follows is easy to take by comparision. Even some of the nasty stuff in the Gap series.

The second most disturbing thing is something I think hasn't been mentioned: Covenant's reunion with Lena and the way she is so totally off her rocker thinking that she's still 16.

Post by **fightingmyinstincts** » Fri May 02, 2003 5:42 pm

How 'bout that famous Raver on a string, on Gallow's Howe?
Hanged people are always icky in my opinion.
Any instance of all the vegetation melting under a desert sun or suppurating under a sun of pestilence.
And after Hollian dies and Sunder carries her all the way to Andelain, that always will bug me immensely....it's just horrifying and...there's just no way to describe how that made me feel...

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Fri May 02, 2003 6:03 pm

I don't know why, but the first time I read TWL I felt very uncomfortable when Vain was Commanded in Stonemight Woodhelven. It was almost horrific the way he started tearing them apart without even touching them...

Post by **Skyweir** » Sun May 04, 2003 6:58 pm

I found Linden Avery's description of her early childhood disturbing .. but especially where she snuffed the life out of her mother .. that gave me the creeps! *shrug*

Post by **amanibhavam** » Sun May 04, 2003 9:43 pm

now hinking the Chronicles over, I still think that Covenant's behaviour after the Battle for Soaring Woodhelven was really unsettling, and also when TC bit on that razor in the bread - I could almost feel the pain myself

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon May 05, 2003 9:37 am

oh yeah .. you're right .. that was vile

.. come to think of it there were a rather lot of disturbing parts!!

..

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:13 pm

just because this is a cool thread...

Post by **caamora** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:37 pm

I agree that the Lena/Elana things were some of the worst Covenant could have done and there is no excuse for what he did.

The parts that I found hardest, well there were quite a few parts, but two that stick with me is in the beginning of TPTP, when TC is going through the town peering through windows of his neighbors, hoping that someone will invite him in. I think that he is at his most lost and desolate at this point.

The other part is when Kasryene has TC in a mind hold and Linden and the rest are chained up in the dungeon of the Sandhold and Kasryene moves TC around like a puppet - kissing LInden once and then viciously slapping her the next and the making him dance. That was ghoulish!!

Post by **Durris** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:56 pm

In the first series: Covenant's interaction with the fringe-preacher in the revival tent. I've read this more than once at different points in my own religious trajectory, and my reactions have varied from righteous indignation (of the "what does SRD have against evangelicals" sort) to ashamed recognition ("that's hyperbole, but not by very much!") to righteous indignation in another direction ("theological misuse of a fellow human's sickness!")

In the second series: when the cult members put their hands in the fire to invoke Foul's presence. That scene is the deepest sacrilege in the SRD canon: it is to the caamora what the Black Mass is to the Eucharist.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:18 am

Hehe, if you manage to get all the quotes from the books in this forum, and manage to arrange them correctly...you would have the book...

I wont register here now, maybe later, so many forums to visit...

Anyway, big fan of the chronicles...just started reading them again..

The Land is so sad and destroyed in the 2nd chronicles, and all the great people from the 1st is dead...

SRD managed to make the Land so beautiful and deep, where everything had deeper meanings and feelings.

And then came the 2nd chronicles, i almost gave up reading them, they were so disturbing..I dont think i got to finishing the last one, dont remember why tho, and now i are reading them all over again, this time finishing them all...

currently on third book 1st chronicle...last one before i have to face the ruined Land again

...

I think i never have read such good books...beats J.R.R. Tolkiens lotr by a mile and more

!

Few books make you feel so in touch with the characters, and the Land of course...

lotr were just a plain story...The Thomas Covenant Chronicles beat everything....

Negativ out

Post by **Skyweir** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:53 am

Durris wrote:In the first series: Covenant's interaction with the fringe-preacher in the revival tent. I've read this more than once at different points in my own religious trajectory, and my reactions have varied from righteous indignation (of the "what does SRD have against evangelicals" sort) to ashamed recognition ("that's hyperbole, but not by very much!") to righteous indignation in another direction ("theological misuse of a fellow human's sickness!")

In the second series: when the cult members put their hands in the fire to invoke Foul's presence. That scene is the deepest sacrilege in the SRD canon: it is to the caamora what the Black Mass is to the Eucharist.

yeah the evangelical tent thing made my stomach turn .. I just loathed the self-righteous fervour of the religous masses .. the hypocrisy .. the hollowness of the religious sentiment .. it all made me shudder and still does.

It was a valuable social criticism imo .. I appreciated the freshness of SRD's critique-esque comment on institutionalised religion ..

To me it was like a vital wake up call to readers .. to ensure that they dont do likewise .. that those who proclaim a spiritual/religous centre .. remember to value and power of sincerity .. of honour and of fealty to whatever ethical virtues they aspire to .. or more regrettably anunciate aspiring to ..

Pointing out the need for the marriage of thought/belief and action .. belief and attitude ..

Particularly those who vehemently attest religous ideals .. must remember what they really mean for them .. Does it mean that I can hate? and am excused in intolerance? that I can say one thing and act in a diametrically opposed fashion?

I dont think so .. to me this was wonderful .. as it is a call for accountability for our own held personal persepctive - and behaviour. To ensure as far as possible the least possible incongruencies between them.

does it mean perfection is demanded? no .. not in the least .. but definately a warning to beware of hypocricies and all their various disguises

yeah i liked that SRD addressed this .. as it was and always has been in issue .. recall the treatment of lepers in biblical times .. "UNCLEAN" ..

there is much shame in our histories .. and our biblical history is no exception ..

Post by **Sheol** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:28 pm

i thought it was pretty bad when (i hope not to sound sexist) linden got the ring, she just doesnt seem somebody you could trust with something like that

Post by **Haruchai** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:06 pm

Post by **Haruchai** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:07 pm

I don't know why, but the part that had the biggest impact on me was Hergroms death, and then Linden trying to stab Ceer, that just left my stomach churning.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:57 pm

Covenant with Lena, in TPTP

it's heart-wrenching

Post by **variol son** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:13 am

Sheol wrote:i thought it was pretty bad when (i hope not to sound sexist) linden got the ring, she just doesnt seem somebody you could trust with something like that

LINDEN HATER!

I never really trusted TC with that power either, at least not for a long time.

Sum sui generis
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Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

What's the most unsettling part of the Chronicles?

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