Kevin's Watch

amnion = ubercreepy .. you gotta love em! they actually make my skin crawl .. the perfect bad guys .. brilliant!

and what freaks me out so much is that they are not burdened with a conscience or considerations based on compassion .. they are cold and methodical .. and umm cold ..

not good guys like the haruchai which are cool rather than cold .. lol ..

i like the borg analogy .. and the amnion are even creeepier .. the hive mind exists and assimilation of other species .. but even more repulsive!

I was thinking about monsters just this morning, before I saw this post. It was the monsters in Lord of the Rings: no individuality, no culture, no dimension. They are defined by scariness and nothing else. I was thinking how much the Amnion stand out by contrast.

That's quite a sweeping statement and entirely untrue in my opinion, but this is quite offtopic here. Nothing that Tolkien has written lacks dimension, culture etc., he was simply unable to write in any other way.

amanibhavam wrote:That's quite a sweeping statement and entirely untrue in my opinion, but this is quite offtopic here. Nothing that Tolkien has written lacks dimension, culture etc., he was simply unable to write in any other way.

I agree, but they can be compared. The Enemy in LOTR was embodied by one individual (Sauron), and his minions (excepting a few lieutenants) were a mindless horde, as merciless as the Amnion, if in less subtle ways.

The Amnion were of one mind (unity of purpose ...), led by no single individual (until Vestibule). The orcs, et al. were ruled by a single will.

ItisWritten wrote:

amanibhavam wrote:That's quite a sweeping statement and entirely untrue in my opinion, but this is quite offtopic here. Nothing that Tolkien has written lacks dimension, culture etc., he was simply unable to write in any other way.

I agree, but they can be compared. The Enemy in LOTR was embodied by one individual (Sauron), and his minions (excepting a few lieutenants) were a mindless horde, as merciless as the Amnion, if in less subtle ways.

The Amnion were of one mind (unity of purpose ...), led by no single individual (until Vestibule). The orcs, et al. were ruled by a single will.

In the case of the amnion, I think that there's some ancillary document which speculates that the "mind/union" is just the amnion recognition of the absolute genetic imperative which rules all of them absolutely. Not even a conscious higher authority but a built in, instinctual need which shapes every action every amnion takes.

Holsety wrote:

ItisWritten wrote:

amanibhavam wrote:That's quite a sweeping statement and entirely untrue in my opinion, but this is quite offtopic here. Nothing that Tolkien has written lacks dimension, culture etc., he was simply unable to write in any other way.

I agree, but they can be compared. The Enemy in LOTR was embodied by one individual (Sauron), and his minions (excepting a few lieutenants) were a mindless horde, as merciless as the Amnion, if in less subtle ways.

The Amnion were of one mind (unity of purpose ...), led by no single individual (until Vestibule). The orcs, et al. were ruled by a single will.

In the case of the amnion, I think that there's some ancillary document which speculates that the "mind/union" is just the amnion recognition of the absolute genetic imperative which rules all of them absolutely. Not even a conscious higher authority but a built in, instinctual need which shapes every action every amnion takes.

I believe that you are correct.

Much of the reason I felt hat the Amnion were a food invention was the lack of mindlessness that they have in their purpose. It is not just Alien species that wants to destroy humanity for no other reason that they can. They have a purpose, and a decent reason why they do what they do. Perfect bad guys.

Also they were truly Alien; we as the reader cannot completely understand how the Amnion thinks; and that is what I imagine any alien species would be like: as different to us in thinking and form as we are to whales, pigs or birds.

The Amnion were a rather lame and impotent foe. Donaldson's one and hopefully last escapade into specualtive fiction on the scientific side is by any means basic.

That would be 1 vote no ...

I suppose the ability to transform someone (mind and body) into an entirely different entity with a single injection wasn't creepy at all?

Roynish wrote:The Amnion were a rather lame and impotent foe. Donaldson's one and hopefully last escapade into specualtive fiction on the scientific side is by any means basic.

interesting and ballsy .. at the same time

lame and impotent? if that were true - would they inspire fear and loathing? .. I'm thinking probably not.

they were a force to be reckoned with .. and the amnion are exansionist and increased their control and presence .. threatening humankind. definately not lame and impotent

lame and impotent would infer they were no threat at all

Yes, the Amnion were cool!!! Insidious, vindictive, relentless, and a whole bunch more flattering villainous adjectives, besides....

Creepy! They were very creepy.

I've said more about my views on them in previous pages of this thread.

Cord Hurn wrote:Yes, the Amnion were cool!!! Insidious, vindictive, relentless, and a whole bunch more flattering villainous adjectives, besides....

I've always just thought of them as alien. Inhuman. By their own standards, they're not villainous at all.

--A

Avatar wrote: By their own standards, they're not villainous at all.

--A

You think?

I think they're well aware of how their actions horrify humans. And to be aware and continue to pursue it is fairly villainous, in my book.

It's their genetic imperative though. It's no different from the missionaries who thought they were saving the souls of the natives by forcibly converting them. They were sure it was ultimately for the greater good.

--A

Avatar wrote:

Cord Hurn wrote:Yes, the Amnion were cool!!! Insidious, vindictive, relentless, and a whole bunch more flattering villainous adjectives, besides....

I've always just thought of them as alien. Inhuman. By their own standards, they're not villainous at all.

--A

Right, but by Holt Fasner's standards, his selfish attempts to have eternal life were for the good of humanity. Villains seldom think of their own acts as being villainous.

MsMary wrote: Avatar wrote:
By their own standards, they're not villainous at all. Very Happy

--A


You think?

I think they're well aware of how their actions horrify humans. And to be aware and continue to pursue it is fairly villainous, in my book.

^^^THIS!

Cord Hurn wrote:Right, but by Holt Fasner's standards, his selfish attempts to have eternal life were for the good of humanity. Villains seldom think of their own acts as being villainous.

Of course. But then, why should we expect the Amnion to want what is good for humanity? They want what is good for the Amnion and act accordingly. They're not hurting any Amnion by doing it.

Is it just expect an alien race to put our well-being above their own? Or even to have the same idea of what that constitutes?

The point about aliens is they're alien. There is no shared frame of reference or experience. They could have motives that we would be incapable of understanding.

--A

Avatar wrote:. There is no shared frame of reference or experience. They could have motives that we would be incapable of understanding.

--A

Yep. They're definitely dangerous---even an existential threat---from [and TO] our frame of reference...which is evil, even if not Evil.
They absolutely think the same of us.

Here's a thing though---when on thing absorbs another, BOTH are affected at some level. How much are the Amnion NOW like/unlike previous Amnion [assuming they'd sucked up other species]...and what about the future given the effective mental destruction prophylactic of the zone implant? And what about the opposite---zoning the Amnion?
The possibilities for hybridity/divergence...wow. Just wow.

Avatar wrote:It's their genetic imperative though. It's no different from the missionaries who thought they were saving the souls of the natives by forcibly converting them. They were sure it was ultimately for the greater good.

--A

That phrase "for the greater good" is such a trap. One can justify all kinds of evil by saying it's "for the greater good."

In a world where beings are traveling between the stars, there also needs to be some sort of cultural sensitivity and allowance made for cultural difference when different species are interacting.

The Amnion didn't make any such allowance, nor did they care to. They just cared about dominance.