So......when does Nom come back into the picture?

[dlbpharmd]

I don't think that the inhabitants of the land would be able to use something like that without white gold. Not quite sure how Esmer is able to control them, but I think he gave some sort of explanation. But I believe that he's a special case.

The Demondim have control of a ceasure through which they access the Illearth Stone. It may be their lore or the Stone itself that gives them ability to control the ceasure - that's never really explained.

[The Somberlain]

Point taken, but they merely use the caesure. They don't create their own (that's my interpretation, anyway). Perhaps they can exercise some control over where (and when) it goes to and from... and maybe that's what Esmer does. After all, he seems to have some sort of relationship with the Demondim-spawn, so that could well be the case.

But the suggestion here is that, in a time when caesures did not exist, the Sandgorgons and Ranyhyn were creating their own (though with less power). It could be argued that the caesures didn't exist in the time of the Illearth Stone either, but I think that it's possible to use one, as long as one "end" of the caesure is rooted within the 90 years before ROTE. During the First Chronicles, there were no caesures at all.

[wayfriend]

Point taken, but they merely use the caesure. They don't create their own (that's my interpretation, anyway). Perhaps they can exercise some control over where (and when) it goes to and from... and maybe that's what Esmer does. After all, he seems to have some sort of relationship with the Demondim-spawn, so that could well be the case.

Perhaps Esmer didn't directly control the ceasure he summoned for Linden. Perhaps he merely forwarded the request to the Demondim!

[finn]

Somberlain, I think you're making my point indirectly, I am suggesting that the Sandgorgons (and the Ranyhyn) are and have been "using the Caesures".

I thought that there was something that suggested that the Caesures, (now that they have been made) touch every point in time and thus presumeably every place (may the force etc...). Also White Gold is graven in every rock and presumeably has been for some time.

If caesures can be used by Demondim, Esmer, Linden, Ranyhyn and lord knows who else, surely they can be used by Sandgorgons!

[The Somberlain]

According to what I currently believe about the nature of caesures (this may change when I read Fatal Revenant, or maybe even when I get round to re-reading Runes), I don't think that the Ranyhyn could have used caesures for their ability to arrive quickly.
The Demondim have arrived from the pre-First Chronicles time, to the Runes time. However, I don't think that they could have arrived in, say, the Second Chronicles time. Just as Anele only arrived a few decades prior to Runes, having come from a few decades after WGW.

So, yes, now that the caesures are in place, I think that people/creatures can arrive in the time of the Last Chronicles from any point in history (perhaps we'll even see Berek at the end. That would be nice).
I don't, however, think that they can leave a point before caesures, and arrive at another point before caesures. Hence the Demondim never appeared in the First or Second Chronicles. And according to that reasoning, Drinny (for instance) could potentially now arrive at the beginning of Fatal Revenant, having left at the end of The Power That Preserves. He couldn't leave through a caesure at the beginning of TPTP and arrive at the end of TPTP, because there were no caesures during the intervening period.

Time travel's always a tricky concept, though.
For example, if the Illearth Stone's now in the time of Runes... surely it's going to have to go back in time to before LFB before the end of the Last Chronicles. Otherwise The Illearth War just couldn't have happened.
If it were any other author, I'd worry that he might not pull it off satisfactorily. But I have confidence that SRD'll have things worked out nicely by the end.

[ur-bane]

According to what I currently believe about the nature of caesures (this may change when I read Fatal Revenant, or maybe even when I get round to re-reading Runes), I don't think that the Ranyhyn could have used caesures for their ability to arrive quickly.
The Demondim have arrived from the pre-First Chronicles time, to the Runes time. However, I don't think that they could have arrived in, say, the Second Chronicles time. Just as Anele only arrived a few decades prior to Runes, having come from a few decades after WGW.

We are told that caesures "run forward." Meaning: without the power (white gold, e.g.) to traverse backward through a caesure anyone unlucky enough to enter one and survive will, if anything, arrive in a future time.

As far as Ranyhyn are concerned, it's not a matter of could, it's a matter of didn't. We are specifically told that they heard the call before it was made, and that the Ranyhyn physically ran the distance to answer the call. Caesures were in no way involved.

So, yes, now that the caesures are in place, I think that people/creatures can arrive in the time of the Last Chronicles from any point in history (perhaps we'll even see Berek at the end. That would be nice).

Yes, based on what we know it would appear that anything in the past can now be brought into the present.
Seeing Berek, however is not something I want. I've said it before--all the Lore and earthpower of the past was not enough to defeat Despite then, and it will not be enough to defeat Despite now.
Have we learned nothing from Elena and Dead Kevin?

I don't, however, think that they can leave a point before caesures, and arrive at another point before caesures. Hence the Demondim never appeared in the First or Second Chronicles.

The reason we never saw the Demondim is because they were defeated at the hands of Loric. The caesures, when we first entered the Land and again in the Second Chronicles, did not yet exist at all. It would be impossible at the time Linden and Covenant first entered the Land to have seen a caesure. The future from which they come had not yet taken place. If now we went back to that time, perhaps we could see a caesure. But while the 1st and 2nd Chronicles originally took place, there were no caesures.
That's why we didn't see the Demondim.
If now a caesure was ridden into the past, any other part of that past's future could be accessed.

Time travel's always a tricky concept, though.
For example, if the Illearth Stone's now in the time of Runes... surely it's going to have to go back in time to before LFB before the end of the Last Chronicles. Otherwise The Illearth War just couldn't have happened.

Is it, though? We are told that the power of the Illearth Stone is being channelled from the past through a caesure. The physical Stone itself is still in the past.

If it were any other author, I'd worry that he might not pull it off satisfactorily. But I have confidence that SRD'll have things worked out nicely by the end.

Here I agree. SRD, as long as he doesn't overuse the time travel concept, can and will pull it off.
In my estimation (maybe "hope" is a better word here) we are not going to see back-and-forth through time traveling throughout the Last Chronicles. To expect that the past will save the future by entering the present demeans and reduces the value of the participants in the past. If that were the case, where the past is rendered meaningless, why not simply take a caesure back to creation, and stop the creator from casting Foul onto Earth through the Arch in the first place? End of story. Done. Foul is no longer a menace to the Creator's Earth.

[finn]

Its all a bit chaotic but I see it that the caesures once "made" are now a part of of all time/place, the power to traverse time/place is woven into the fabric of the land both past and present and possibly future. In effect , the creation of caesures changes the possible pasts, much as we are used to the idea of a person going into the past and some action on their part, changing the possible futures.

The fact that they are made in the relative future, is not material to their effect; once created, someone from the past may or may not "use" them presumeably depending on their knowledge, power, lore etc. to be able to manipulate the force of the caesure, which would be seen as a normal, naturally occurring phenomenon.

I have two Ranyhyn scenarios:

Firstly, the Ranyhyn do not run the distance but use the Caesures to answer their call and that the information we are supplied by Mhoram and the like is their rationalisation of the phenomena, probably picked up from superstitions of the Ramen. This I accept is pushing the envelope of feasibility!

Secondly that the Ranyhyn "hear" the call through the force of Caesures. Whilst many are saying this cannot be the case, it would explain how it is done.

With both scenarios above (and with the sandgorgons), movement or use of caesure is in a "forward" direction. I also think its relevant to the discussion to question how the Ranyhyn are so familiar with the concepts and forces of the caesures.

The sandgorgon phenomena is the same, the conventional wisdom of the board seems to be that the sangorgons run the distances involved because a particular character has said so. We then blindly assume that the author is stating this through the character, but if that were the case then Foamfollower's tales of the rainbow etc. must also be true???

If what I am suggesting were to be the case, it opens a whole host of possibilities for the remaining three books; if SRD sees this too (and it might be a big IF), we really are opening up enormous possibilities, which I sort of thought was what this board was all about.

[NightBlaze]

Again, I have to say we dont know the lifespan of the Sandgorgons, so unless we hear they live forever, Im assuming that we wont see Nom at all. Er...unless someone brings him back like they did Hollian in White Gold Weilder. If he comes back from the past to the present, thats gonna be VERY disappointing I think.
The Ranyhyn on the other hand, are a manifistation of Earthpower, such was the description in Lord Fouls Bane. I didnt read any such description in The One Tree or White Gold Weilder. I just reread all 3 of the first and all 3 of the second series so I am certain of this.
The basic understanding I recieved about Nom was that he was just powerful and fast. Thats it.

[Old Darth]

Do we really want Nom to reappear? Any further usage would be formulaic and a crutch.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Do we really want Nom to reappear? Any further usage would be formulaic and a crutch.

It depends on how he comes back.
A raver possessed Sandgorgon fighting some ceasure displaced Old Lords would interest me greatly.

[Nerdanel]

There are a lot of things Nom could have done, and being corrupted by Raver remnants even if not actually possessed is at the top of the list. Freeing Kastenessen by Sandgorgon power is an interesting idea. Another idea is that Nom with his un-Sandgorgonish thoughts could have founded the great Sandgorgon empire of Brathairealm. Thomas Covenant didn't say anything about killing foreigners and the Brathair could well think it a good idea to ally with living Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[bossk]

Do we really want Nom to reappear? Any further usage would be formulaic and a crutch.

In the hands of a lesser writer, maybe. But SRD left this door open - he didn't ever tell the rest of Nom's story, which is bound to be an interesting one. I certainly think if he comes back it won't be just to hammer a wall down - he's a sentient being with a purpose now - to free and elevate his brethren.

[Tjol]

just finished white gold wielder.

the sandgorgons are more likely to become a non haruchai kind of Haruchai with Nom's guidance. Nom says that he values freedom, in the one tree it's suggested that maybe the only reason sandgorgons ever attacked brathair was because they were perceived the structures of the city as a restriction on their freedom. And now they are savage and cogniscant, and noble with Nom's guidance. So think of the Haruchai except for they are earthpower made potent by a vow to freedom rather than a vow to service. imo

I tend to think that Runes.. has set up the opportunity for the likes of the cavewights, sandgorgons, ur viles, perhaps even the lurker to be the heroes this time around. It would create the perfect paradoxical solution right? ^^

All the noble peoples of battles past in the land are ignorant in their own way, that a battle is even approaching... but the cavewights, urviles, (sandgorgons would loathe lord foul's machinations if they witnessed them don't you think?) still have scores to settle.

I think cavewights might be involved because in WGW Linden's sensing that Mount Thunder is waiting for a time in the future when it will enact it's vengeance... and cavewights are to Mount Thunder as wraiths are to the forests of the land in some part.

(I enjoy random speculation, sorry if I've wondered too far off )

[Xar]

I personally think that a Sandgorgon's ability to travel vast distances in a short time (Doom -> Revelstone, for example) requires a more complicated explanation than "they are very fast". Although the Sandgorgons are incredibly powerful, they do have their own limits: Nom couldn't break down the gates of Revelstone with a single blow, he had to pound on them until he finally broke them down. So, I would find it implausible to believe that when Covenant called him, he started running very fast in a straight line, going through the sea, destroying everything in his path until he gets to Covenant. What did he do, bore a tunnel through Landsdrop to get from the Lower to the Upper Land, for example? Searching for a passage - even at great speed - would have taken time (not to mention how weird it would be the thought ). I tend to believe that the speed of a Sandgorgon is more than purely physical speed, much like the Sandgorgon's strength is much more than purely physical strength (I think it was written somewhere that the Sandgorgons's size belies their power, and rending a Raver cannot be done by physical strength alone, after all, or the Forestals would have done so already). I would compare a Sandgorgon's speed to the Blood Speed bestowed upon Covenant by the Waynhim in TWL, but in a superior way: that is, a physical act accomplished through "supernatural" (as opposed to purely physical) power. In the Sandgorgons' case, of course, it's a much greater speed; but perhaps it includes something more. "Distance has no meaning for such power" could also mean that when a Sandgorgon answers a summons, it doesn't travel strictly through normal space, but "shrinks" space in relation to itself, so that to the Sandgorgon, traveling from the Doom to Revelstone not only may require just a handful of minutes, but also that, by shrinking space, any possible obstacles (mountains, Landsdrop, the sea...) are simply "skipped".

Heh, this is difficult to explain properly... Imagine something like this:

[Doom] [Bhrathairealm] [Ocean] [Lower Land] [Landsdrop] [Upper Land] [Revelstone]

Now, this is the journey a normal human would have to do in order to get from Sandgorgons' Doom to Revelstone. When a Sandgorgon is summoned, it not only travels at inhuman speed, it also contracts this journey into, say:

[Doom][skip][skip][Lower Land][skip][skip][Revelstone]

Whereas "Skip" means that, for the Sandgorgon, those parts of the journey simply do not exist. An outside observer would see a Sandgorgon start from the Doom at terrible speed, and soon be out of sight; if he could follow the Sandgorgon from an outside perspective through the whole journey, he would probably see the Sandgorgon running at terrible speed over the ocean, translating from Lower to Upper Land in the blink of an eye, and slowing down its speed gradually as it approaches Revelstone (while from the Sandgorgon's perspectiv the fabric of space is "stretched" again to its normal length).

It's in a way similar to taking a sheet of paper and tracing a line from edge to edge (normal travel from one edge to another) or folding it in two until the two edges meet and tracing a "line" from one to the other (a Sandgorgon's travel).

[matrixman]

I get the picture. Folding or warping space. Heh, the same principle behind what the Guild Navigators do and what the Enterprise does. It's a good thing the Chronicles are fantasy, otherwise the Sandgorgons would have to work out some complicated physics equations.

[dlbpharmd]

Great post, Xar (as always!) I tend to think that the magic of the Doom could have helped to propel a Sandgorgon at faster than normal speeds. Of course, Nom was not in the Doom at the time of his summoning to Revelstone, so what you're saying may be closer to the truth.

[Nerdanel]

I always imagined that Sandgorgons just are able to accelerate without limit so that they move really quickly over long distances, like several kilometers in a second while their spectacular physique keeps them unharmed by random collisions. "Oops, did you have a shed here? I saw nothing." Perhaps Nom can run up the Landsdrop with his great speed pinning him to it, in the manner of Sonic the Hedgehog. I think obstacles would probably only be a problem in a Sandgorgon's acceleration phase.

On the subject of freedom, if the Sandgorgons indeed become some sort of anti-Haruchai obsessed with freedom, I think things would not necessarily be just fine. I see them potentially causing great damage in that kind of situation, since things are never that simple. (I could write here a rant on politics.)

[Warmark]

Ther were paths up from Landrop though. Eg, the one Foul's Armies must have used. Nom could have run up one of these.

[Tjol]

On the subject of freedom, if the Sandgorgons indeed become some sort of anti-Haruchai obsessed with freedom, I think things would not necessarily be just fine. I see them potentially causing great damage in that kind of situation, since things are never that simple. (I could write here a rant on politics.)

I think before Nom's 'enlightenment' the sandgorgons were the reckless freedom type. I think after that enlightenment, Sandgorgons become a bit more of the responsible freedom types. Passion is passion, passion + wisdom is something greater.

[Relayer]

Bump.

This was in the latest batch of GI responses:

Nom's ability to answer Covenant's summons to Revelstone was a function of Kasreyn's magic in creating Sandgorgons Doom; it was not a power inherent to the Sandgorgons.