Interesting semantic game Nathan but your digging yourself a hole on this one. You may have no reason to believe me when I say that 2+2 equals 4, but that does not change the fact that my statement will be recognized as fact a posteriori and thus is patently not indicative of bias.
Do you have anything more substantial to add to our discussion regarding Anti-Semitism and the UN or was that the extent of your input? As you know, diverse opinions are always welcome.
Viability of the UN
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Gadget nee Jemcheeta
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Hahahaha... Brinn, are there specific classes that I can take to pull off your level of condescension, or is it some kind of inborn mutant ability? 
Just playing, by the way. So is the accusation on the table that all of the major powers in the united nations have a personal predjudice against the Jewish state?
Just playing, by the way. So is the accusation on the table that all of the major powers in the united nations have a personal predjudice against the Jewish state?
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
use what you have,
do what you can.
It's a skill that's been carefully honed on the mean streets of Worcester, MA where hoodlums often jump out and challenge innocent men and women to impromptu debates. 
And I'm typically not condescending unless baited which is obviously, at least IMHO, what Nathan was trying to do. Hey, I'm weak...I took the bait.
To answer your second question, No, the major powers have not been accused of antisemitism but I think a strong case has been made that the Arab league (or at least many Arab nations) has been able to co-opt the mechanisms of the UN in order to demonize the Jewish state. You should take the time to read the debate. It's packed with info!
And I'm typically not condescending unless baited which is obviously, at least IMHO, what Nathan was trying to do. Hey, I'm weak...I took the bait.To answer your second question, No, the major powers have not been accused of antisemitism but I think a strong case has been made that the Arab league (or at least many Arab nations) has been able to co-opt the mechanisms of the UN in order to demonize the Jewish state. You should take the time to read the debate. It's packed with info!
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Gadget nee Jemcheeta
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I've read most of it.
Just curious... how has the Arab league been able to co-opt the mechanisms of the UN?
What I mean is, what specific tactics have they used that would be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the goverments of the major UN powers, to the point that they aren't even aware that the mechanisms of the UN have been co-opted?
Just curious... how has the Arab league been able to co-opt the mechanisms of the UN?
What I mean is, what specific tactics have they used that would be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the goverments of the major UN powers, to the point that they aren't even aware that the mechanisms of the UN have been co-opted?
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
use what you have,
do what you can.
In simplest terms it is because they have a permanent, cohesive and motivated voting block in the GA and are very vocal in their protestations.
To answer your question as to how they can do it without the UN as a whole realizing the pro palestinian/Arab slant of their policies would take a very long response indeed. Again I'll try to be succinct at the risk of being pithy: It is because the goal of the UN is to minimize friction between nation states and there are not many countries who are willing to endure Arab criticism (nor risk Arab anger which could effect a state economically). Thus when pro Israeli resolutions or Arab denunciations are made you get fervent opposition. Unfortunately it is often easier to capitulate in the spirit of concilliation rather than to oppose and, as has been the case for many years, you eventually reach a status quo where resolutions condemning Israel become an accepted norm.
The reality on the ground is much more dynamic and complex than this broad generalization however, IMHO, these are the basics.
To answer your question as to how they can do it without the UN as a whole realizing the pro palestinian/Arab slant of their policies would take a very long response indeed. Again I'll try to be succinct at the risk of being pithy: It is because the goal of the UN is to minimize friction between nation states and there are not many countries who are willing to endure Arab criticism (nor risk Arab anger which could effect a state economically). Thus when pro Israeli resolutions or Arab denunciations are made you get fervent opposition. Unfortunately it is often easier to capitulate in the spirit of concilliation rather than to oppose and, as has been the case for many years, you eventually reach a status quo where resolutions condemning Israel become an accepted norm.
The reality on the ground is much more dynamic and complex than this broad generalization however, IMHO, these are the basics.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
Common acceptance of a belief does not make it fact. Until you qualify your statement "2+2=4" by setting out rules for what you mean by 2, +, = and 4 you do nothing more than give an opinion.my statement will be recognized as fact a posteriori and thus is patently not indicative of bias.
I could say "it's raining hard outside" but until I define what I mean by "hard" and "rain" I give nothing more than an opinion.
Since your statement "2+2=4" was designed to convince people that my statement "2+2=5" was incorrect, it is clearly biased.
Being fact does not exempt something from bias either. Other facts can be omitted so as to imply their non-existence, emotionally coloured words can be used in place of perfectly adequate non-emotionally coloured words with the same meaning. There are many ways fact can be biased. This includes your statement.
As for the fact being a posteriori, anyone with experience in binary arithmetic will tell you that 1+10=11. This is also fact a posteriori, but will not be accepted as such unless qualified beforehand with something like "Using binary arithmetic".
[spoiler]If you change the font to white within spoiler tags does it break them?[/spoiler]
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Gadget nee Jemcheeta
- The Gap Into Spam
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Oh god, now this is ridiculous. I mean, I can't believe I'm doing this. There is a high likelihood that lightning from the heavens is about to crush me.....................................................Nathan, Brinn is right *shudder*
If you refused to discuss anything unless you can logically justify it outside of opinion, you end up slamming right into Hume. And we want to avoid Hume. And Kant, by the way. And if you two keep talking about whether or not 2+2=4 is recognized as a fact a posteriori, I'm liable to get ill. Granted, its frustrating to deal with Brinn when he gets 'pithy', but if you guys really want to debate this, take it to the Close. I'm sure we could yell about a posteriori truth all day. And by we I mean you two.
There, and if I ever side with Brinn on anything again, it'll be too much for my poor heart.
Back to the subject: Brinn, that makes sense. The question that I have to follow up with, then is: Is there any chance that the UN will pass anti-israeli resolutions that will have any actual impact on israel? Not likely, I'd imagine. Or any anti-palestinian resolutions that will have an effect on them directly? As in, force them to change their policy? That also seems incredibly unlikely.
....
So yeah, unless I'm mistaken (and if I am, I'm sure it will be pointed out to me in short order) I'll just chalk this one up as a point for the UN not being viable team.
If you refused to discuss anything unless you can logically justify it outside of opinion, you end up slamming right into Hume. And we want to avoid Hume. And Kant, by the way. And if you two keep talking about whether or not 2+2=4 is recognized as a fact a posteriori, I'm liable to get ill. Granted, its frustrating to deal with Brinn when he gets 'pithy', but if you guys really want to debate this, take it to the Close. I'm sure we could yell about a posteriori truth all day. And by we I mean you two.
There, and if I ever side with Brinn on anything again, it'll be too much for my poor heart.
Back to the subject: Brinn, that makes sense. The question that I have to follow up with, then is: Is there any chance that the UN will pass anti-israeli resolutions that will have any actual impact on israel? Not likely, I'd imagine. Or any anti-palestinian resolutions that will have an effect on them directly? As in, force them to change their policy? That also seems incredibly unlikely.
....
So yeah, unless I'm mistaken (and if I am, I'm sure it will be pointed out to me in short order) I'll just chalk this one up as a point for the UN not being viable team.
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
use what you have,
do what you can.
My connection is a bit slow at the moment. I keep finding myself waiting, thinking it hasn't finished loading the page, because the smilies haven't appeared in Nathan's posts. Then I realise there aren't any. 
Nathan, the values 2, 4, 5, + and = already have defined meanings that are accepted in every country in the world (yah global cooperation!). The onus would be on you, as the person offering a fomula that incorporates alternative meanings, to identify the alternative meaning of the values you are using (and probably an explanation of why doing so is remotely valid).
Egads man!
Nathan, the values 2, 4, 5, + and = already have defined meanings that are accepted in every country in the world (yah global cooperation!). The onus would be on you, as the person offering a fomula that incorporates alternative meanings, to identify the alternative meaning of the values you are using (and probably an explanation of why doing so is remotely valid).
Egads man!
Last edited by Rivenrock on Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LOL.
Jem, a couple things regarding your question on a UN resolution having any effect on Israel.
1. The UN, even with the US pushing them, is very reluctant to take any action regarding their resolutions.
2. The US feels it must be a protectorate of Israel, due to their geographical circumstances and the US holds the same veto power other countries have.
So, the likelihood that anything will change directly due to a UN resolution is extremely small, and the US must be convinced it is in their best interest to support it.
Plus, if you want to get religious, the Jewish/Palestinian struggle is the main barrier to peace in the Middle East. So, anything pushing towards peace, will be blocked by someone as long as possible, since "Peace in the Middle East" is in the path of Revelations, IMHO.
Jem, a couple things regarding your question on a UN resolution having any effect on Israel.
1. The UN, even with the US pushing them, is very reluctant to take any action regarding their resolutions.
2. The US feels it must be a protectorate of Israel, due to their geographical circumstances and the US holds the same veto power other countries have.
So, the likelihood that anything will change directly due to a UN resolution is extremely small, and the US must be convinced it is in their best interest to support it.
Plus, if you want to get religious, the Jewish/Palestinian struggle is the main barrier to peace in the Middle East. So, anything pushing towards peace, will be blocked by someone as long as possible, since "Peace in the Middle East" is in the path of Revelations, IMHO.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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dennisrwood
- The Gap Into Spam
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Most definitely. A climate of vehement anti- any nationality is dangerous, especially to the group the anti- is aimed at, or by.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
First you start agreeing with me, now you're agreeing with Brinn.....Come to the Dark Side Jem....JemCheeta wrote:Oh god, now this is ridiculous. I mean, I can't believe I'm doing this. There is a high likelihood that lightning from the heavens is about to crush me.....................................................Nathan, Brinn is right *shudder*
Maybe it's because I have a lot of family in Europe, but I thought it was commonly accepted that there's a tremendous amount of anti-semetism over there.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Kymbierlee
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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- Contact:
Cail wrote:
Sorry- I must be getting tired...............
Seriously, Jem- I am feeling outnumbered here.... I stayed out of this discussion completely.....
No, Jem- don't do it! There stands Howard Dean like a stone wall! Liberals- rally behind Vermont!First you start agreeing with me, now you're agreeing with Brinn.....Come to the Dark Side Jem....
Sorry- I must be getting tired...............
Seriously, Jem- I am feeling outnumbered here.... I stayed out of this discussion completely.....
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire.
I honestly don't think this issue is a liberal / conservative one. I have no issue with the goals of the UN as stated in their Charter. The aims are admirable and noble. I just wish that it could function better than it currently does.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Kymbierlee
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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- Contact:
You're right, Brinn. That was just an inappropriately timed joke brought on because I am not used to working day shift and getting up at 430 am...I honestly don't think this issue is a liberal / conservative one. I have no issue with the goals of the UN as stated in their Charter. The aims are admirable and noble. I just wish that it could function better than it currently does.
I actually agree with you about the UN. I love their mission and intent, but I am disillusioned with their present state.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire.
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dennisrwood
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I'm curious Dennis, if you don't like the intent of the UN, do you think there should be any sort of international group (NATO, the World Bank, The Hague, League of Nations, etc)?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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dennisrwood
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:20 pm
Cail: simple answer, no. i distrust the aims of most of those groups. i dislike Nato for standing pat as former communists nations pleaded for entry, but Nato fearing the former USSR being upset, did nothing. i am against any large group controling money. the league of nations was the model for my beloved UN. and i really dislike the whole EU thing. none of the groups has our interests at heart. call it selfish, but there it is.
Can't say I disagree with you Dennis.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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