Kevin's Watch

Deer, a question in response to your last comments in that thread?

How does one earn the right to criticise (at any level)?

Good question, Cambo. The right to criticize would have to perhaps include a balanced perspective, in which the critic acknowledged the good in something, not just used it as a two-dimensional villain, or to borrow a kind of credibility. We're not talking about Hitler here, but the Church-- in many areas of the world (still) the only resource providing health care, education, and hope to the impoverished. It's about a lot more than control and power. And his use of esoteric factoids about angels to add a veneer of spiritual authority was cheap.

I feel so mean and harsh!! Did anyone notice how much I said I loved the books??!? *runs to the hug thread*

I really liked these books....I thought the movie was awful, but as a reader, I am used to this by now....You can always find things to pick at, but to me, it was an original idea, in an interesting world, which moved to other worlds. It wasn't the same plot over and over again.

Well Lady Revel, as I live and breathe.

How nice to see you around again. It's been what...four years?

Welcome back.

--A

Avatar! Lovely to see you as well! Yes, it has been a while, lots of twist and turns in my life.....I need some stability, so I thought I would look up old friends. *grin*

And here we are, pretty much as you left us.

--A

That is very lucky for me.

Yes it is.

Not sure what it says about us though...uh...constancy, that's what it says about us. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

--A

Reliability, Av. Dependable rocks to cling to in a stormy sea

There ya go.

--A

And weirdly enough, I'm posting here again because I actually read the books. Haven't seen the movie.

They were ok. The first book was a bit juvenile, the second book was good, the third was rather disappointing.

--A

It's been a long time, but IIRC I thought they tackled really dark and difficult subjects in view of the young minds the were aimed at. Pullman came across as the Dawkins of adolescent aimed novelists and his 'God/religion bad, secular/atheist good' approach in my view amounted to little more than atheist-humanist propaganda aimed at young impressionable minds. To tie the Church of the novels to a thinly disguised version of the concentration camps was a pretty low trick given that that is the kind of association that sticks in young minds.

Like Av, IIRC I thought the second book the best, but by the third the story had descended into an almost outright attack on any kind of belief and became a pretty confused and ill-structured affair to boot. By the end I was not sure who had won, what they had won and why they had won it! But by then I no longer cared anyway.

I really didn't notice an attack on any beliefs. Maybe I'm just oblivious to it given my own general antipathy toward them.

--A

Well Pullman (I think, but might be wrong) has been up alongside Dawkins (on stage that is) at these atheist/humanist rally's, and if so I guess there might be something of that in the works. But it's entirely possible I've misread the books and created a non-existant metaphor that just wasn't there........errr........

You have it right, peter. I only read the first book and found that there was a distinctly materialist theme to the books that is portrayed as 'good' in contrast to the 'bad' religion. I have no doubt that someone like Dawkins would just love it!

u.

In general, the polemics of authors don't bother me much. It's just part of the world / character building to me.

--A

It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.

I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?

Orlion wrote:It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.

I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?

Not sure if this is directed to me, but I'll pick it up anyway. I thought the writing and storytelling in The Golden Compass were quite good. It may simply be that overt polemic doesn't sit well with me. I read some of the Narnia books when I was young and wouldn't even have noticed the religious allegory in them. Yet as soon as I started TGC I knew what was coming at me. I had a similar experience with David Weber's Safehold series and I still managed to read on (maybe because it was for adults rather than YA).

I also get it a bit when a clearly libertarian message is being pushed (can't take much of Heinlein, for example, although Stranger in a Strange Land was okay). So, yeah, maybe when the politics doesn't sit well with my own and it is overt, that is a factor. But, I think that I generally don't mind any sort of philosophy, religion, ideology etc. when it is integrated into the story. People like Ursula le Guin and L.E. Modesitt Jr. are not afraid to tackle stuff like that fairly directly and yet because it is subordinate to the needs of the story it doesn't bother me.

u.

I love Heinlein.

I like Orson Scott Card too, (well, his writing anyway).

--A

Avatar wrote:I like Orson Scott Card too, (well, his writing anyway).

I'm a fan of Card's books as well. I've never felt that they were polemical, am I missing something?

u.