Reading Runes: A Tale of Two Cosmologies

[wayfriend]

The Gradual Interview washes up another nugget today ...

(Steve M, you here?)

STEVE M: Can you clear up certain questions about the Arch of Time. Not to sound to naïve but what precisely is the arch of time. The description given in the text is that the Creator needed a place to for his creation to be so that he created the arch to hold the earth within its confines. Since it is called the “arch of time” does the term refer to a temporal explanation, i.e. the arch begins at the time of creation and ends at the end of time/destruction? Armageddon? etc.? If yes, is there in fact an end of time/end of creation or is the arch in and of itself infinite?

The second part of my inquiry has to do with the concept of the arch or the Land being a prison for Lord Foul. According to the creation story, the creator did not realize until too late that Despite had infiltrated his creation. If the creator were to extend his hand and interfere, the arch of time would be destroyed and despite would be free to wreak havoc in the Universe, hence the necessity of summoning Covenant or Linden to the Land and hoping that the exercise of their free will and choices that are made independent of the creator’s influence will save the Earth/the Land. This leads to another problem does the destruction of the arch of time necessarily mean the destruction of the Earth? In theory, the creator could interfere destroy, defeat or at the very least fight Lord Foul with the result being the Earth and/or the Land continuing along their merry way but with Foul free to wreak havoc throughout the universe. The problem is this. Isn’t despite already present in the universe? Isn’t the very essence of the human psyche a never ending struggle between good and evil? In essence isn’t the terminology we use designating good and evil more symbolic of two opposing forces which yield a new outcome. I.E. thesis + antihesis = synthesis. Moreover, the universe itself reflects a never ending struggle between these forces. Indeed, in many respects isn’t creation and despite manifestations of the same thing? I know that these inquiries cover a lot of ground but the prime inquiry revolves around the fact that the Arch of Time doesn’t really seem to be a prison for Foul at all. Practically speaking, Despite has always and will always be free to wreak its havoc in the universe. In retrospect, I guess this isn’t a question at all but more of a request for a comment on these observations and how they relate to the Chronicles.
__________________

Your questions go in so many directions at once that they’re difficult to address. For example, to say that “the human psyche is a never ending struggle and between good and evil” is enTIREly different than saying “the universe itself reflects a never ending struggle between these forces.” The former assertion is defensible, if open to debate. The latter is at best anthropomorphic, and at worst observably and even theologically suspect. So I’m having trouble filtering my way through to a subject on which I can actually comment.

But the most obvious and necessary comment is that “The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant” are a work of *fiction*, a construct of a human mind. They describe specific characters in specific situations in a specific IMAGINARY reality. They do not contain or even reflect “the universe”: in fact, they don’t pretend to do that. A statement like, “The Arch of Time cannot be a prison for Lord Foul because we see evil everywhere around us” is like saying--forgive me--“We know that oranges do not exist because I’m sitting in a chair.” (Now I remember that this is why I got so tired of “Creator” questions.) Your perceptions about the world, or the universe, in which you live naturally affect how you read a book--as they should--but it’s important not to blur the distinction between the book (a completely artificial fiction which--we hope--follows its own internal rules consistently) and the world in which you live. (And don’t even get me started on the UNIverse).

The Arch of Time *is* a prison for Lord Foul because he is an atemporal (eternal; unfettered by time, causality, or sequence) being who is forced to exist temporally, and who cannot--at present--return to his natural state. Such an “unrealistic” state of affairs is only possible in a work of fiction.

As for the Arch itself: well, I admit that the language is inherently misleading. It implies a pre-defined structure with--among other things--two necessary ends (because an “arch” can’t stand without two ends which are attached to foundations). I regret that. I simply don’t have (and perhaps the people of the Land don’t have) a better way to refer to what is actually a *process*; or a set of on-going rules or mechanics which simultaneously enable things like chronology and consecutiveness (without which life as we know it would be impossible, and the Earth of “The Chronicles” would certainly cease to exist) and prevent things like wandering through eternity, or being everywhere at once, or even being in two places at once. My best analogy is the act of storytelling. “The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant” would be gibberish if I didn’t abide by a number of rules (like the Law of Time), some of which are so obvious that we don’t even think about them. Like sequence, linearity: sentences don’t actually mean anything unless the words are arranged in a very specific order. If you change the order, you change the meaning. And if you remove “order” itself, you remove all meaning. *That*, in its simplest terms, is the Arch of Time. It both imprisons and enhances each individual word, each individual character, each individual situation; each LIFE.

I could go on and on about this; but I’m sure you get the point.

(03/15/2006)

This goes towards what the Arch might metaphorically represent in the Arch of Time myth. Donaldson calls it a process, a set of ongoing rules. (Compare to: "The Arch, as I have always espoused, is a framework of laws which allows the Earth to be.").

And he points out that some other characteristics of an arch - a beginning and and end resting on a foundation - don't seem to be intended as part of the analogy.

Finally, his use of the word 'imprison' there at the end is interesting ...

[edit] Oh, before I forget ... compare his explanation of order with respect to storytelling with the philosophy of wyrd. Very compelling.

[Zarathustra]

The Arch of Time *is* a prison for Lord Foul because he is an atemporal (eternal; unfettered by time, causality, or sequence) being who is forced to exist temporally, and who cannot--at present--return to his natural state. Such an “unrealistic” state of affairs is only possible in a work of fiction.


So Foul does NOT belong in the Land: he is indeed an entity from "outside" who finds himself trapped within the Land.

I think you are confusing the character Lord Foul with what Lord Foul represents. Sure, the character doesn't belong in the Land. Why? Well, partly because he doesn't want to, and partly due to the rules SRD has set up for his work of fiction (his character is atemporal). But the first answer is entirely from LF's perspective; LF may be wrong. The second answer ties the character to what he represents: LF is atemporal because he is an archetype, a symbol.

So maybe I wasn't clear when I said LF belongs in the Land. I should have said "what LF represents belongs in the Land, not the character itself. Look at this nugget from the GI:

On a conscious level, I was more concerned with trying to tell the truth about the Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy, everything always runs down), and to suggest that it is the task of every caring being (that perhaps it is the entire purpose of life) to resist the process as much as possible; to preserve as much as we can for as long as we can.

If this was part of SRD's purpose in writing the Chronicles in the first place, then it would be a 180 degree opposite translation to suppose that he meant chaos and entropy DON'T belong in the Land (i.e., what Foul represents). The TRUTH about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is that it is real, it is part of the world we live in. The "task of every caring being" is not to deny this truth, but to have hope in spite of it. So, yeah, LF belongs in the Land, but this doesn't mean its inhabitants shouldn't resist him at the same time. Paradox!

Or, consider what Wayfriend just quoted:

sentences don’t actually mean anything unless the words are arranged in a very specific order. If you change the order, you change the meaning. And if you remove “order” itself, you remove all meaning. *That*, in its simplest terms, is the Arch of Time. It both imprisons and enhances each individual word, each individual character, each individual situation; each LIFE.

So LF is "imprisoned" not because he doesn't belong within the Arch, but rather because of who he is. EVERY character is imprisoned, but only Foul resists it (because he resists order). However, this doesn't mean that constrained disorder is unnatural, it's just--again--paradoxical. There's a difference between "unnatural" and "paradoxical." Foul is essential and necessary, or he wouldn't be in the story. To say he doesn't belong in the Land is like denying that destruction is part of creation.

[Nerdanel]

SRD pretty much confirmed what I had been thinking all along. But here is an interesting nugget to further complicate this thread.

"Sun-Sage," replied Daphin, "We are the Würd of the Earth."

Daphin then goes on to tell the familiar story of the Worm with "Worm" replaced with "Würd".

Trying to make this all fit together, I'm thinking that the bright children of the Creator were eaten and absorbed spiritually by the Worm, so that they became part of it, but still retained something of their individuality so that they can act like separate persons when the Worm is asleep but cannot go outside the Worm's "stomach".

I'm thinking something very similar to the classic Clark Ashton Smith story The Coming of the White Worm, except on a different metaphorical level. I wonder if SRD likes Smith?

I'm also starting to think that awakening the Worm would in practice mean wreaking so much havoc that all the Elohim agreed on a single course of action and become essentially a one mind. They could even together shapeshift into a single huge and powerful serpent if they wanted to. But the Elohim really really really don't want to do that because they would lose their individualities, and that's why they can't (won't) fight Lord Foul unless Lord Foul forces them to a.k.a. awakens the Worm deliberately. This event would be like every single Elohim becoming an Appointed, and we know how much they detest that fate.

Also, I think the Worm would not be ended, but the existing creation would get quite thoroughly scrubbed away and its old laws erased without the stability allowed by the undirectedness of the Elohim, in other words meaning that the Arch of Time as we know it would be broken. In this case Lord Foul would be free to escape if he isn't busy fighting the Worm.

[wayfriend]

So LF is "imprisoned" not because he doesn't belong within the Arch, but rather because of who he is. EVERY character is imprisoned, but only Foul resists it (because he resists order). However, this doesn't mean that constrained disorder is unnatural, it's just--again--paradoxical. There's a difference between "unnatural" and "paradoxical." Foul is essential and necessary, or he wouldn't be in the story. To say he doesn't belong in the Land is like denying that destruction is part of creation.

Hmmm....

I was looking at it from the Earth's point of view, and trying to reconcile these things. What I have is: The necessities of life and death mean that when a world is created, something is gonna happen to cause some destructive forces to get put in it. The Creator didn't plan for it when he created the Arch, and so cosmic forces came into play. Foul happened to be in the wrong place and the wrong time, and he got nabbed. The niche for despite acted to fill itself, and Foul got grabbed and slotted in. But it's not personally directed at Foul - something/someone else might have filled the role in a different sequence of events.

This seems to allow Foul to have individuality - he doesn't need to be a consituant component of creation. And it also allows that there is this mandatory presence for evil, and Foul fills it. It also speaks somewhat to Covenant's role in the Arch as well - he was a guy, now he's a building block of physics.

I know this is not what you're saying. You're saying Foul's personality or character somehow dictated that somehow, somewhere, he'd get stuck inside something he despises. And the Creator happened to come along with his Arch in a wheelbarrow at the wrong time.

Maybe both are true ways of looking at it.

I'm thinking something very similar to the classic Clark Ashton Smith story The Coming of the White Worm, except on a different metaphorical level. I wonder if SRD likes Smith?

Please educate us!

[Zarathustra]

You're saying Foul's personality or character somehow dictated that somehow, somewhere, he'd get stuck inside something he despises.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying. I think you are looking at this from inside the literary creation, while I'm looking at it from the outside. I'm not talking about Foul before the creation, and his characteristics making him get stuck inside something he despises. I'm talking about what he symbolizes. Symbolically, he is Disorder constrained by Order, supressed chaos. That is his imprisonment. I think his urge to escape is the same as the "urge" of the 2nd law of thermodynamics to increase the level of chaos in the universe. In the real world--our world--whenever we create a small pocket of order in the universe (for instance, building a house) there is always a greater amount of disorder "expelled" to the environment (cutting down the trees to make boards, mining ore to make nails, the waste energy involved in powering tools, etc.), so that the 2nd law isn't violated. [There is always a net gain in disorder even when we order things.] The creation of the Land and its world represents a local increase in order. LF's desire to escape is merely the pressure of the 2nd law to make a reckoning.

An interesting side note: the 2nd law of thermodynamics is one of the "arrows" of time. In case you've never heard of this, the "arrow" of time is what physicists call the apparent flow of time in only one direction. However, they don't know how to explain this apparent one-way flow, because according to all their equations, there is no mathematically distinguishing factor that would necessitate time only going in one direction. However, we are aware of the flow of time by things running down and becoming more chaotic. For instance, we never experience broken cups suddenly coming together into whole cups and leaping up onto tables. Instead, we always see the opposite sequence: cups falling off of tables and breaking.

Maybe it is no coincidence that SRD wants to explore both time and the 2nd law in his Chronicles. Maybe LF's attempts on time itself are self-defeating (for Foul), because once you undermine the "arrow" of time, and things don't necessarily have to flow from past to future, then the 2nd law of thermodynamics no longer holds, and chaos doesn't necessarily have to overcome order. Foul may end up killing himself in his attempts to free himself . . . whatever that might mean symbolically.

[I'm going to start a new topic to discuss these things so I don't derail this one.]

[Nerdanel]

I am putting my thoughts on the latest derailment into the new thread, so no more about that now...

Please educate us!

I recommend that you read the story yourselves before I spoil you any more than I already did.

Spoiler

Instead of a nebulous Würd thing that eats stars/Elohim, the story has an actual physical worm-like entity that eats wizards. Unlike the Elohim who seem to really enjoy being in the world, the dead wizards in the time of their individuality during the worm's monthly sleep however experience their state a lot more like Lord Foul and want out.

Considering also the matter of the worm's slaying, I'm starting to think Lord Foul would indeed have a good chance at killing the Worm at the World's End in a fair fight, but he also would die when the energies tied into it burst out if he is at the killing distance.

(By the way, getting off-topic again, I wonder if Linden can get accustomed to being in a caesure so that it doesn't feel cold and painful to her anymore... That could have interesting implications.)

[wayfriend]

Today in the GI:

(btw, "immortal" for LF and "immortal" for the Elohim are two entirely different concepts. The Elohim are immortal *within the Arch of Time*. If time no longer exists, they won't either. LF doesn't have that problem.)

(04/12/2006)

One of the things we've been talking about herein was how the Elohim relate to the whole cosmology. This is rather a clue.

Stars, she had heard, were the bright children of the world's birth, the glad offspring of the Creator, trapped inadvertently in the heavens by the same binding that had imprisoned the Despiser. They could only be set free, restored to their infinite home, by the severing of Time. Hence their crystalline keening: they mourned for the lost grandeur of eternity.

Well, if the Elohim are the stars devoured by the Worm, or the stars trapped in the Wounded Rainbow, then they are not these stars. For these stars can escape and be free; the Elohim cannot.

The Elohimfest, and the defense of the One Tree (supposedly mounted by the Worm=Würd), convince me that the Elohim/star relationship cannot be far wrong.

On the other hand, the Elohim are clearly derived from the Earth; the Earth's creation led to their creation. So, in that sense, they cannot be from outside the Arch, and are linked to the Earth's existence.

*Sigh* I admit to being disappointed with Donaldson's words today. He's thrown a spanner in my grand theory ... somewhere. I'll feel better if I ever work this valuable clue into the tapestry, though.

[finn]

However it does enlighten us to the motivation of the Elohim, their very existence depends upon the Arch; that's a pretty powerful reason for them to fight tooth and nail to keep it intact. Maybe that's why anything that does not effect it is merely burdensome for them: it does not have sufficient importance.

That being the case, I wonder how then events that have forced or motivated the Elohim to self sacrifice, relate to their prime motivation.

[Nerdanel]

However, the recent revelation ties well with my theory that the souls of the Elohim have been absorbed by the Worm/Würd and have individual existence only when it's asleep. They are not really gone when the Worm is awake, but as far as they are concerned, the difference doesn't matter. (I wonder how this relates to Sheol and Nom.)

I think a few stars managed to avoid being eaten or were left when the Worm was satiated, and those are the lonely stars that still remain in the heavens and will be freed at the world's end - if the Worm doesn't eat them too.

[wayfriend]

However it does enlighten us to the motivation of the Elohim, their very existence depends upon the Arch; that's a pretty powerful reason for them to fight tooth and nail to keep it intact.

Did anyone have a theory where the Elohim were coniving to destroy the Earth? That would need to be tossed away. Maybe.

However, the recent revelation ties well with my theory that the souls of the Elohim have been absorbed by the Worm/Würd and have individual existence only when it's asleep. They are not really gone when the Worm is awake, but as far as they are concerned, the difference doesn't matter.

Well, I don't know about that specifically, but I agree that it's possible that the Elohim may originate from before the creation of the world, but are now bound to it's fate. The Elohimfest does seem to suggest that the Elohim remember another form of existence.

[Jerico]

Maybe in the Creators universe the stars are sentient? This would seem to fit with the theory that the Elohim are those stars that the Worm ate.
They are Earthpower and so that makes them part of the magic of that world.
They are working their magic to keep the Worm in slumber...

[dlbpharmd]

bump

[Holsety]

However it does enlighten us to the motivation of the Elohim, their very existence depends upon the Arch; that's a pretty powerful reason for them to fight tooth and nail to keep it intact.

Did anyone have a theory where the Elohim were coniving to destroy the Earth? That would need to be tossed away. Maybe.

However, the recent revelation ties well with my theory that the souls of the Elohim have been absorbed by the Worm/Würd and have individual existence only when it's asleep. They are not really gone when the Worm is awake, but as far as they are concerned, the difference doesn't matter.

Well, I don't know about that specifically, but I agree that it's possible that the Elohim may originate from before the creation of the world, but are now bound to it's fate. The Elohimfest does seem to suggest that the Elohim remember another form of existence.

There's still a potential archbreaker wannabe among the elohim. Kastenessy! If you count him.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

I think with Foul it is more of a superiority complex. He thinks he is better than everyone else. Also, his sole goal is to free himself from the Arch so everyone on the Earth is insignificant to him. He would do anything to attain his goal. His Ravers are under the impression they would be free with him but as they were created or born within the Arch I think they may be a little disappointed if it ever happened!

Actually, I was fairly sure that Foul *does* know he's evil. He represents, after all, self-hatred. And the thing about Foul is that, like Covenant at times and like Kevi Landwaster, his knowledge that he is evil fills him with rage and adespair that drive him to do evil, thus perpetuating the cycle.

Covenant, being human, can outgrow it, but Foul cannot, because he is the very essense of despite, and can never grow or change...

[Nerdanel]

I've been thinking about something again, and I think I might as well post it in this thread.

I've rethought my (still not entirely clear) position on Würd specifics:

Elohim: Würd
Viles: Wild/Vile(???!?)
Demondim: Wyrd(?)
ur-viles/Waynhim: Weird
humans: Lord(?)/Lore(?)/Law
Ranyhyn: Will
... World
... Worm
... Wyrm
... Well
(Cavewights(?):) Work
(The One Forest(?):) Wood

Now the funky part:
Creator + Lord Foul (in creating the universe/possible original state of undivided divinity): Wörld (a.k.a. Woerld according to the German rules)
Creator: El (El is one of the names used for God in the Bible.)
Lord Foul: Word

"In the beginning there was the Word." Lord Foul wants to be worshipped as the "one word of truth". Perhaps his true name (if he has one) is Word. I've always been maintaining that Foul is pretty much a (Gnostic) Old Testament God.

I have more but I think I'll let you digest this first. I'm feeling like digesting some food myself now...

[Dirty Whirl]

I never really thought that the 'worm' was an actual worm, rather than just another representation of the arch of time itself, because I thought the elohim would be more trustworthy calling it a wryd, rather than whoever called it a worm.
Theres a part in the book which sort of contradicts my belief that the worm/wyrd is the same thing as the arch of time. Its the bit where someone explains why lord foul didn't just wake up the worm himself, namely because he would be consumed. Though this could be explained that if lord foul touched the one tree to wake the worm he would probably be fryed by the wild magic/earthpower/star power or whatever if is that covenant fights. But then if what he fights is wild magic, then he should hypothetically face the same problem lord foul does after coveant becomes the arch! Arrg, im just going to bed.

[wayfriend]

I never really thought that the 'worm' was an actual worm, rather than just another representation of the arch of time itself, because I thought the elohim would be more trustworthy calling it a wryd, rather than whoever called it a worm.
Theres a part in the book which sort of contradicts my belief that the worm/wyrd is the same thing as the arch of time. Its the bit where someone explains why lord foul didn't just wake up the worm himself, namely because he would be consumed. Though this could be explained that if lord foul touched the one tree to wake the worm he would probably be fryed by the wild magic/earthpower/star power or whatever if is that covenant fights. But then if what he fights is wild magic, then he should hypothetically face the same problem lord foul does after coveant becomes the arch! Arrg, im just going to bed.

The contradiction was discussed early on in this thread. Did you see it?

[sherlock_525]

Not to make anybody smack themselves in the forehead (oops! too late) but is it possable that Foul was nothing more than a mindless force for chaos? Think about this: Back in the first chrons. the story of the King, Queen, and Berek. It was stated that the King was infuenced by a his own lust for power, the Queen saw his evil and took her champion Berek into battle with the King. Now we have seen Foul as a corporeal(?) being at the end of "Power". It seems that the disregard of the Elohim toward anything other than "the shadow on the heart of the Earth" implies that Foul himself is not the true danger, perhapes he is nothing more than a host (The King himself?) for a mindless force of destruction? Maybe the body can be killed but the ?force? that gives him his might will continue... Crap, sometimes I wish I was smarter, this disjointed rambling makes me seem crazy...

[wayfriend]

Not to make anybody smack themselves in the forehead (oops! too late) but is it possable that Foul was nothing more than a mindless force for chaos? Think about this: Back in the first chrons. the story of the King, Queen, and Berek. It was stated that the King was infuenced by a his own lust for power, the Queen saw his evil and took her champion Berek into battle with the King. Now we have seen Foul as a corporeal(?) being at the end of "Power". It seems that the disregard of the Elohim toward anything other than "the shadow on the heart of the Earth" implies that Foul himself is not the true danger, perhapes he is nothing more than a host (The King himself?) for a mindless force of destruction? Maybe the body can be killed but the ?force? that gives him his might will continue... Crap, sometimes I wish I was smarter, this disjointed rambling makes me seem crazy...

Not crazy. At the bottom of page two in this thread, I pondered as well the question, is Foul an independent being? Or is he merely a representation of the Arch's inherent and necessary capability for destruction?

[shadowbinding shoe]

I disagree with many of the opinions posted about Lord Foul here.

Why does everybody claim that Lord Foul is a force of Chaos? Sure he wants to pervert/destroy the current order in the world but that doesn't make him inherently a champion of chaos. The Sunbane was not 'chaos'. It was a new kind of order. A whole new creation. We may not have liked to live in it but it was one impressive piece of creation. When we meet him at TPTP we see that he creates all kinds of new beings to inhabit his demesnes (and his armies) and that he built a very symmetrical and orderly building to live in. What he hates we learn is not order. Quite the opposite in fact. He hates life, for its transmutability. What he wants to create is a perfectly ordered world where there is no place for life. He may not be capable of accomplishing his desire, but that is his desire nonetheless.

And he's certainly not necessary in the Creation to make it capable of its own destruction. Hasn't he already placed enough banes and evil beings in it to enable it to become dust and be undone completely. What he has done so far is just push these banes and beings into action. Goad the positive forces to give up. He wasn't necessary for those things to happen. They could have accomplished those things on their own. He was just something extra.