Political ramifications of London bombings

Archive From The 'Tank
Locked
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Kinslaughterer wrote:That's funny coming from the guy who thinks Bush invaded Iraq to help the children and bring freedom...
You might want to read the actual War Resolution Kins....
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1138960/posts
Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people;
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population
Gee, sounds like helping children and bringing freedom to me....
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

Oh I've read it but if you believe that was the motivation for war then I've got a great piece of beach-front property here in New Mexico to sell you...
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Oh, I see, so you just arbitrarily pick and choose what part of the Resolution to pay attention to.

"Yeah, we'll keep the WMD thing 'cause it turned out to be BS, but forget the humanitarian stuff, 'cause that makes the administration look good."

That's quite an outlook you've got there.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Lord Mhoram
Lord
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am

Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,

The Bush Administration invaded Iraq to deliver humanitarian aid? Is that what you're saying?
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

After all its previous arguments failed they restorted to the humanitarian cause.
My outlook is simply realistic.
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Brinn
S.P.O.W
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:07 pm
Location: Worcester, MA

Post by Brinn »

I'll let Cail speak for himself but I have posted my "Reasons For the War" so many times I've lost count. If you disagree with them, than that is your prerogative but don't mischaracterize my stance...it's slightly more nuanced than puppy's and roses.

I'm typically not easily offended and don't like to get sentimental. The problem with these conspiracy theories is that there are families out there who are missing members due to some very real circumstances and some misguided people with explosives and a desire to hurt innocents. IMHO, it is insulting to insinuate that either the British or US governments had anything to do with the bombings. It is intentionally shifting responsibility for these acts from the real perpertrators and moving the focus away from real solutions.

You can wheel out the Rove/Plame fiasco and build your proof on possibility and conjecture. You can claim the Downing Street Memo is proof of past conspiracy (I'm not willing to grant you that one carte blanche but that's a topic for a seperate thread). The problem is, where does it stop?

I've heard that the DNC and Howard Dean are the true puppet masters and they control Bush, Blair, Rove et al. It's the DNC's plan to make the GOP look bad thus regaining the confidence of the American people. Of course there is no proof of this but that's only because it's such a carefully guarded secret. You think General Westmoreland died of natural causes? Not likely. He was going to blow the whistle on the Dems so Dean hired Ted Kennedy to kill him. You see it all makes sense...
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

Don't worry the DNC doesn't need to help the pubs look bad, they do it quite well themselves.

I know you've paraded out the list of reasons why we should go to war and in your mind it was legal but was it ultimately right? The argument would be the ends justify the means. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
The problem with these conspiracy theories is that there are families out there who are missing members due to some very real circumstances and some misguided people with explosives and a desire to hurt innocents. IMHO, it is insulting to insinuate that either the British or US governments had anything to do with the bombings. It is intentionally shifting responsibility for these acts from the real perpertrators and moving the focus away from real solutions.
But when as more and more questions arise and nearly impossible coincidences occur one's mind drifts to other possibilities.
The fact that people have died makes it even more important to look at every reasonable facet of the situation. It is not always the case that people mastermind bombings but how often does a blind eye turn from a situation that could be avoided or prevented? Israel seemed to know that something bad was going to happen...
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Brinn
S.P.O.W
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:07 pm
Location: Worcester, MA

Post by Brinn »

Kins wrote:it even more important to look at every reasonable facet of the situation.
Agreed. With the emphasis on the word REASONABLE.
Kins wrote:Israel seemed to know that something bad was going to happen...
Can you provide me with a reputable source for this intel? I think if you do the research you'll find that Netanyahu was diverted after the bomb exploded near the meeting site. The original AP article that implied that Israel was informed by British intelligence ahead of time is wrong. Embassy officials were informed by British officials a few moments after the first explosion went off.

If Israel knew that a bombing was imminent why did they allow Zvi Heifitz, Israeli ambassador to the UK, to remain in the hotel? Additionally, is Al Qaeda Europe's claim of responsibility also a fabrication? If so why hasn't the real Al Qaeda sown more western dissent by pointing out that it had nothing to do with the London bombs?
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

Clearly we have 2 different definitions for reasonable.
I'm not saying that Al Qeada wasn't responsible but if intelligence is purposefully ignored then that is criminal negligence.
The AP is wrong? where is your proof then? MSNBC posted an article for about 4 hours after the bombing but then pulled the story without correction or explanation.
The ambassador wasn't in any danger inside the hotel
In denying widespread reports that Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warning of the London terrorist attacks "minutes before" they occurred, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom claims that "After the first explosion, our finance minister received a request not to go anywhere."

The problem with this explanation is that it was only after the third explosion that London police realized they were in the midst of a terrorist attack. Up until that point, authorities thought they were dealing with a series of accidents caused by a power surge, as this timeline from the Australian Times-Herald makes clear:

8.49am (GMT): An incident on the train line between Liverpool Street and Aldgate is reported to British Transport Police.

9.15am: Media reports emergency services called to London's Liverpool Street station after an explosion.

9.24am: Police say the incident was possibly caused by a collision between two trains, a power cut or a power cable exploding. Police report "walking wounded".

9.33am: Passengers told that all underground train services are being suspended because of a power fault across the network.

9.33am: Reports of another incident at Edgware Road station.

9.40am: Police say power surge incidents have occurred on Aldgate, Edgware Road, King's Cross, Old Street and Russell Square stations.

10.02am: Scotland Yard says it is dealing with a "major incident".

10.14am: A witness says that a bus has been ripped apart in an explosion in central London.

10.21am: Scotland Yard reports "multiple explosions".

10.23am: Police confirm an explosion on a bus in Tavistock Place.

10.25am: The BBC's Andrew Marr, with Prime Minister Tony Blair in Scotland, says the PM is "still unsure" whether the explosions are a terrorist attack.

If Netanyahu was told a terrorist attack was underway after the first explosion – which everyone, including the police, thought was due to a power surge – then that’s a lot more than the victims of the subsequent explosions were told as they rode the Tube to their doom. Which means the Foreign Minister’s explanation – Netanyahu was told to stay in his hotel room after the first explosion, rather than show up at the Israeli economic conference at a hotel near Liverpool station – is entirely consistent with the claim that he was tipped off to what was really going on, while the rest of the city stumbled into disaster and, in some cases, death.
Dallas Morning News
A little-known group, the Secret Organization of al-Qaida in Europe, posted an Internet message asserting responsibility, saying, "The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters." The group said the attacks were in retaliation for British military "massacres" in Iraq and Afghanistan - though there was some confusion when a later message seemed to retract the claim of responsibility.
www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=85346
Report: Israel Was Warned Ahead of First Blast
10:43 Jul 08, '05 / 1 Tammuz 5765


(IsraelNN.com) Army Radio quoting unconfirmed reliable sources reported a short time ago that Scotland Yard had intelligence warnings of the attacks a short time before they occurred.

The Israeli Embassy in London was notified in advance, resulting in Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu remaining in his hotel room rather than make his way to the hotel adjacent to the site of the first explosion, a Liverpool Street train station, where he was to address an economic summit.

At present, train and bus service in London have been suspended following the series of attacks. No terrorist organization has claimed responsibility at this time.

Israeli officials stress the advanced Scotland Yard warning does not in any way indicate Israel was the target in the series of apparent terror attacks.
Furthermore MSNBC TV translator Jacob Keryakes, has pointed out that the claim of responsibility contained an error in one of the Quranic verses it cited.
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

I have never stated that the only reason we went to war in Iraq was for humanitarian reasons. However, to deny that among the numerous reasons we went to Iraq there were humanitarian causes, is to deny reality.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Lord Mhoram
Lord
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am

Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,

You are right. However another reality is this: the Bush Administration initially stated WMD as the chief reason for going to war with Iraq. When it became increasingly apparently that WMD did not in fact exist in Iraq, then humanitarianism, which had been a minor reason for invading, became the chief reason all of a sudden. The only explanation for this was the Administration knew it had screwed up.
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Which I have stipulated every time this topic has come up. It was absolutely foolish for Bush not to go on TV and say, "we screwed up, we can't find the WMDs, but here's what we did find out..", and then make the humanitarian case, as well as reinforce the numerous UN violations.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Brinn
S.P.O.W
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:07 pm
Location: Worcester, MA

Post by Brinn »

Kins,

Your posted timeline, originally from the Australian Sun Herald, was reprinted along with the commentary you post on Justin Raimundo's AntiWar.Blog site. The quote you provide is lifted directly from that site. The link is here. What you failed to post is the small update to that timeline posted on the very same site. I will reprint your quote in it's entirety below. Please note the update which I have placed in Bold for emphasis:
AntiWar.Blog wrote:London Terror Tip-off: Timeline Refutes Israeli Denial

UPDATE: The new timeline that we are now being told is much closer to the truth -- that the explosions in the London terror attack were mere seconds apart -- obviously makes the analysis herein invalid.

In all the rush and emotion of Terror Thursday, I had forgotten the number one axiom for a libertarian journalist: if a government says something, we have to assume they're lying. This goes double for the government of British Prime Minister Tony Blair, which has turned "for you own good" paternalism into an excuse for a worrying authoritarianism.

Given the new sequence of events we are presented with, the Israelis' claim that Finance Minister Netanyahu received a warning after the first explosion makes sense -- that is, if their denial that they received a warning before the blasts can be believed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



In denying widespread reports that Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warning of the London terrorist attacks "minutes before" they occurred, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom claims that "After the first explosion, our finance minister received a request not to go anywhere."

The problem with this explanation is that it was only after the third explosion that London police realized they were in the midst of a terrorist attack. Up until that point, authorities thought they were dealing with a series of accidents caused by a power surge, as this timeline from the Australian Herald-Sun makes clear:

8.49am (GMT): An incident on the train line between Liverpool Street and Aldgate is reported to British Transport Police.

9.15am: Media reports emergency services called to London's Liverpool Street station after an explosion.

9.24am: Police say the incident was possibly caused by a collision between two trains, a power cut or a power cable exploding. Police report "walking wounded".

9.33am: Passengers told that all underground train services are being suspended because of a power fault across the network.

9.33am: Reports of another incident at Edgware Road station.

9.40am: Police say power surge incidents have occurred on Aldgate, Edgware Road, King's Cross, Old Street and Russell Square stations.

10.02am: Scotland Yard says it is dealing with a "major incident".

10.14am: A witness says that a bus has been ripped apart in an explosion in central London.

10.21am: Scotland Yard reports "multiple explosions".

10.23am: Police confirm an explosion on a bus in Tavistock Place.

10.25am: The BBC's Andrew Marr, with Prime Minister Tony Blair in Scotland, says the PM is "still unsure" whether the explosions are a terrorist attack.

If Netanyahu was told a terrorist attack was underway after the first explosion – which everyone, including the police, thought was due to a power surge – then that’s a lot more than the victims of the subsequent explosions were told as they rode the Tube to their doom. Which means the Foreign Minister’s explanation – Netanyahu was told to stay in his hotel room after the first explosion, rather than show up at the Israeli economic conference at a hotel near Liverpool station – is entirely consistent with the claim that he was tipped off to what was really going on, while the rest of the city stumbled into disaster and, in some cases, death.
Even Mr. Raimundo at Antiwar.blog (which I assume is a somewhat unbiased source given the sites name) has admitted that the "official" story makes sense.

May I ask you what you think? What is your personal opinion? Did the US, UK or Israel plan this?
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

I didn't get that from the Antiwar blog but I'll be sure to find the link to the site I located. Has the AP officially corrected their story yet?
If you payed attention to my above post I suggest as does the sources that they did not plan but ignored intelligence.
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Brinn
S.P.O.W
Posts: 3137
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:07 pm
Location: Worcester, MA

Post by Brinn »

I'll be interested to see your link.

Can you show me the original AP story? The AP has retracted all mentions of it. Combine this with the fact that every story they have released since notes that the Israeli embassy was notified shortly after the bombs went off and you have your answer.

Also please elaborate on the "ignored intelligence" angle. I'm not quite sure what your saying there. Who ignored intelligence?
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Kinslaughterer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2950
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:38 am
Location: Backwoods

Post by Kinslaughterer »

web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/5997.htm

americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/bush-a ... e-for.html

Where has the AP posted a correction? More importnantly why did they post it at all in the first place?

www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=85346

The file was not found but if you carefully read the tighter timeline is doesn't refute the prior timelines analysis at all. But why are their all these changes?
Here is the original AP article:
ap.lancasteronline.com/4/israel_britain_explosions
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.

"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."

https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
User avatar
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton
Posts: 61791
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Avatar »

Interesting posts folks. I gotta say that the question crossed my mind not long after I heard of the blasts. Whether or not it is true, I'll not speculate. Evidence is tenous at best.

However, the point is, it could be true. Otherwise why is it so plausible? How easy is it to imagine that the US government, facing flagging support, purported plans by the Brits to withdraw, increasing questioning of their methods, everything bad, would decide that a new terror attack (on a major player, because who cares whats happening in the less developed parts, right?) is just what the world needs to remind it how serious a threat this is, how important it is that everybody stays fully behind the "war on terror", etc? How convenient an attack right then would be.

Now of course, this doesn't make it true. If it was pure coincidence, then, as I said at the start of this thread, it was a strategic error of serious proportions on the parts of the terrorists. Are they just such terrible strategists? I wonder sometimes. Perhaps it's inevitable if you've got dozens/hundreds of little cells acting independently.

You can't count on anyone to be clever all the time, and always keep the right things in mind.

Anybody have thoughts on the fact that London police blew away an innocent man because they thought he was a bomber?

--A
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

Avatar wrote: Anybody have thoughts on the fact that London police blew away an innocent man because they thought he was a bomber?
There is no easy stand to take on this. I felt awful that a hapless, innocent man's life was taken by those who are entrusted to protect the hapless and the innocent. Yet the police said that he ran away from them and didn't stop when he was ordered to. So I have to wonder: if he was innocent and had nothing to hide, why did he continue to try to evade the police? Simple fear of being beaten or something?
User avatar
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton
Posts: 61791
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Avatar »

Can't say for sure, although I'd imagine that anybody who looks vaguely "middel-Eastern" is going to be very nervous in London since the bombings. I can't imagine them admitting they made a mistake if there was any chance that it had been legitimate though.

Here's something about it:

www.news24.com/News24/World/Londonattac ... 58,00.html

--A
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

Ultimately, I think it's a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. If the police had not acted, there would be questions about why they were lazily allowing suspicious appearing people off the hook, even if the man was innocent. Well, the police acted, and the man turned out to be innocent, and there are questions about why they targeted him. It's a public relations nightmare for the police.

We want the police to do their job and be alert for anything suspicious, and the news reports say surveillance officers were indeed suspicious of that man's behaviour and had been monitoring him. In this heightened state of affairs, we want the police to act quickly and decisively on their suspicions, not just stand around and go, "oh, he's probably an OK bloke--let's not bother him."

Could the police really have allowed him to get away, burdened as they were with the heavy responsibility of safeguarding against the possibility of another bomb attack? Ultimately, the man should have stopped running away so that he could have the chance to show his innocence. Instead he chose to continue running and lost that gamble with his life.

Thanks for the link, Avatar. I had typed out my post already but I'll let it stand.
Locked

Return to “Coercri”