Kevin's Watch

safetyjedi,

Since that carried the death penalty

Good point.

safetyjedi wrote:I totally agree LM. He was forced into that and then he deserted. Since that carried the death penalty, I'd say that was the ulitmate denouncement.

Yep, I don't know how you could more firmly denounce something, than by being ready to die for opposing it.

All right, you win, guys. I'm man enough to concede the point: the Pope's past is completely irrelevant to this discussion. I'm going to move on instead of wasting any more of my energy thinking about the Pope.

What is it about Pope threads that gets people so stirred up anyway?

This one is fairly tame compared to the last one...

Is it all Popes, or just this particular one that gets people all riled up? And if all Popes, would those who do not like that office feel similarly about other people in similar offices, like the guy in Salt Lake City who runs the Mormon Church, has millions of followers, and is also considered to be an infailable authority who directly represents God on Earth?

(Syl, if I misunderstand that Mormon position, please correct me! I am hardly an expert on the LDS...)

Interesting question Duchess. Before I say something about it though, I'd just like to mention that I think that even the people who are agreeing that the Popes past is not relevant are not making the necessary distinction between the Germans, the German army, and the Nazi's.

Nazi refers to members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Lietrally, the National Socialist German Workers Party. A political party. Certainly, they had their own militant wing, but just because somebody was in the german army didn't mean they were a member of the Nazi party. Especially towards the end with conscription etc.

Duchess, for me, its the "conservatism" of people in such positions that I "disapprove" of. They rarely support the freedom of people to do what they want/believe best for them. Instead, they seem to seek some sort of control, as if they have a vested interest in the actions of others. "Act as my beliefs tell me you should." And worse: "For your own good."

--Avatar

Lord Mhoram wrote:Plissken,

Umm, 'cause he was a Nazi, and now he's the Pope?

Still not seeing why it's a big deal. He was probably conscripted, at the age of 16, and then he deserted.

I'd be worried if he were part of the Nazi idealogue, and maybe if he wasn't 16 when he joined.

You're oversimplifying it. It's more complicated than "OMG HE WAS A NAZI."

For the sake of this discussion, it still seems terribly ironic to me. More so, in fact, if he was a principled child who was forced into a morally corrosive situation and escaped at the first opportunity.

I mean, fine: He was forced into the Hitler Youth, and now his worry about the corruption of our children is friggin' Harry Potter?

Ah! Finally a Christian article that is Pro-Harry!! SO refreshing!! I'm not saying I agree with how far they've taken some of the allegories, but it's a step in the right direction

Plissken,

For the sake of this discussion, it still seems terribly ironic to me. More so, in fact, if he was a principled child who was forced into a morally corrosive situation and escaped at the first opportunity.

I mean, fine: He was forced into the Hitler Youth, and now his worry about the corruption of our children is friggin' Harry Potter?

Are you saying that he is ineligble to be Pope because of the time and place of his birth? Because any young man of his generation and geographic location would have been conscripted. I see no irony in that.

However, regarding his assertions on Harry Potter: they are obviously over-the-top. I am not disputing that, especially in comparison to Nazism.

I think the irony that Plissken mentions is that, caught up in, and recognising as such, a situation as morally corrupting as Nazism, it's ironic that he should consider Harry Potter corrupting, (because he should know what's really corrupting.)

He doesn't seem to be implying he is ineligible for the papacy at all to me.

--A

Avatar, He's approaching the question differently than we are. He knows about the morally corrupting effects of Nazism, and figures that we do too. What he is approaching is the, to him, spiritually misleading effects of the books. Since we don't see that it's hard to grasp his argument.

Well put Damelon. As we said earlier, what else could the Pope say about them.

--A

Lord Mhoram wrote:Plissken,

For the sake of this discussion, it still seems terribly ironic to me. More so, in fact, if he was a principled child who was forced into a morally corrosive situation and escaped at the first opportunity.

I mean, fine: He was forced into the Hitler Youth, and now his worry about the corruption of our children is friggin' Harry Potter?

Are you saying that he is ineligble to be Pope because of the time and place of his birth? Because any young man of his generation and geographic location would have been conscripted. I see no irony in that.

However, regarding his assertions on Harry Potter: they are obviously over-the-top. I am not disputing that, especially in comparison to Nazism.

No, I'm saying what I said. (I used to use that statement all the time when I was married.)

I mean, if we accept the assumption that he wasn't a gung-ho little Hitler Youth, there's still an opportunity for him to use his personal experience to stand up to the intitutionalized corrupters of children - there are children being trained to fight wars, to be suicide bombers, etc. - in much the same way that John Paul used his experience to support the Solidarity Movement and help along the fall of the Soviet Union.

Instead, this guy goes after the "corrupting influence" of Children's Literature.

Given his background, it's at best bewildering. At worst, he's just picked up on the misdirection and propaganda lessons that created the Hitler Youth in the first place.

Either way, it's pretty clear that he's no John Paul.

Iryssa wrote:Ah! Finally a Christian article that is Pro-Harry!! SO refreshing!! I'm not saying I agree with how far they've taken some of the allegories, but it's a step in the right direction

Thanks for the link, Iryssa - very interesting article!

Plissken,

In that case I agree. It is obvious to me that the Catholic Church often devotes its vast resources to superfluous things.

Either way, it's pretty clear that he's no John Paul.

Indeed, he is not.

Edge wrote:

Iryssa wrote:Ah! Finally a Christian article that is Pro-Harry!! SO refreshing!! I'm not saying I agree with how far they've taken some of the allegories, but it's a step in the right direction

Thanks for the link, Iryssa - very interesting article!

I enjoyed it very much, too. In fact, I think it would be great if you were to also post the link in the Rowling forum.

Very interesting discussion. A pity I have not read it until now.

Forst of all, I agree that the Pope denouncing Harry Potter is wrong, and narrow minded. But there are millions of people who do the same thing. Who purchase the books for the sole purpose of burning them. People who stand outside protesting with signs. As avatar's quote said:

R.A.Heinlein wrote:Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

I won't.

Lord Mhoram wrote:Dragonlily,

I say encourage the Pope to be as outrageous as possible, forbidding even more delightful, harmless things. Simply continue the trend. The numbers of Catholic Church members who are willing to go along with those prohibitions are shrinking fast. That church is phasing itself out.

As a Catholic, I am impressed by the sheer truth in these words. It saddens me to no end the way that the Church is indeed "phasing itself out." We are on the decline, and it is because of our detestable Pope. I have no respect for the man, who leads my Church. He is a bad choice at any time for Pope, but now especially.

Even if the church is in decline, why should that effect you, in realistic terms. Your faith is what matters when it comes to your religion, not the views of one man.

Kinslaughterer wrote:Let's compare:

Harry Potter is a fictional adolescent wizard...
The Pope served Nazi Germany, quite possibly against his will, yet the most evil force the Earth has ever known. He of all people could learn a lesson from Harry about standing up for what is right.

And if anyone has damaged young minds to Christianity it has been the Catholic Church.
Inflexible is finding some sinister motive in Harry Potter, not pointing out that the Pope probably shot down U.S. and Allied aircraft.

Very strong words, and I disagree with many of them...

"the most evil force the Earth has ever known," - I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. To state that one whole people is evil would make you as narrow minded as the Pope's view on Harry Potter. Not every man in Nazi Germany was evil. You have to remember that at the time, going the war was probably being put out as the best thing you can do. Propaganda has always played a large part in wars, making your side righteous while the other side is falsey accused of being evil. That's probably how the Mazi's recruited so many people.

And another point of your statment, "the most evil force the Earth has ever known," I disagree with; Tyrants have come and gone since man first walked this earth, as have inhuman regimes. Hitler wasn't the first, and he won't be the last.

ChoChiyo wrote:For me as well, it is the Pope's ultra conservative agenda, anti-progressive thought, and lack of tolerance for anyone who does not fit his narrow vision of what is "right."

His negative view of Harry Potter is just a small--nay, negligible--factor in my general disgust with him.

I don't know much about this Pope, or indeed, any Pope, as I have not had much faith, I have seen no reason to read into any of them. However, on his views of Harry Potter, I obviously disagree strongly. I do dislike the narrow minded people who have views such as this, not just the Pope.

Sylvanus wrote:Not to attack anyone's beliefs, but there's a lot of information out there that points to the fact that Mother Teresa was as pure good as the nazis were pure evil. I'd guess the truth's somewhere in between.

I don't believe in things such as "pure evil" and "pure good". I know they're is inhuman vileness out there, too much of it, many would say, but "pure evil" and "pure good". No.

And Mother Teresa, pure good? No, I think she had some traits in common with the current Pope you all seem to be such fans of. That her work gave good results, I do not doubt. But many times she scolded thems that were a "distraction" from religion and God. She did not, from evidence (because no-one can ever fully know) have the open mindness that you all conceed her to have had.

I don't think that you should all criticize the Pope for being in the Nazi army. Because I could just as easy condemn the American and British troops that were (and still are) in Iraq. I have always thought that the war was vile, and done for the wrong reasons. But is it the troops fault they were ordered to go there? No, it's the Politicians that decided. And the Pope deserted the Nazi army even though it meant a death mark; and some of you criticize him for joining at the age of 16? Think about that.

Darth Revan wrote:

Sylvanus wrote:Not to attack anyone's beliefs, but there's a lot of information out there that points to the fact that Mother Teresa was as pure good as the nazis were pure evil. I'd guess the truth's somewhere in between.

I don't believe in things such as "pure evil" and "pure good". I know they're is inhuman vileness out there, too much of it, many would say, but "pure evil" and "pure good". No.

And Mother Teresa, pure good? No, I think she had some traits in common with the current Pope you all seem to be such fans of. That her work gave good results, I do not doubt. But many times she scolded thems that were a "distraction" from religion and God. She did not, from evidence (because no-one can ever fully know) have the open mindness that you all conceed her to have had.

Darth, m'boy, you just repeated what I was saying, albeit at much more length. I thought you brits got irony. Seriously, if you're going to lay down the Truth According to Darth, pay more attention.

Point taken. I was actually rushing quite a load in reading all this topic. And I guess I missed certain details. I'm also posting on two other forums at the moment, and on msn. Nevertheless, I am sorry that i screwed up.

No harm, no foul. But you know I gotta rib you when it comes to irony.

the most evil force the Earth has ever known," - I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. To state that one whole people is evil would make you as narrow minded as the Pope's view on Harry Potter. Not every man in Nazi Germany was evil. You have to remember that at the time, going the war was probably being put out as the best thing you can do. Propaganda has always played a large part in wars, making your side righteous while the other side is falsey accused of being evil. That's probably how the Mazi's recruited so many people.

And another point of your statment, "the most evil force the Earth has ever known," I disagree with; Tyrants have come and gone since man first walked this earth, as have inhuman regimes. Hitler wasn't the first, and he won't be the last.

How in the hell am I narrow-minded by stating the Nazis were the most evil force the world has ever known? Do you know any WWII history? You're from England for god's sake...
The Nazis weren't evil? Hold on, I didn't say all of Germany was evil or malevolent. I don't think anyone has come nearly as close to destroying the world as the Third Reich. Certainly the Cold War and Stalinist Russia were extremely dangerous but they didn't make a full attempt at world conquest.

Are you actually suggesting that the Nazis were victims of Allied propaganda? No, Hitler was not the first or the last but the most heinous. Heard of the Holocaust? It really happened. I dare you to find a more evil man and group than the Nazis.
Perhaps you should actually try reading posts for comprehension before commenting on them.