Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!

[hierachy]

I don't think it was random at all...

Anyway, he's one of my favourite characters in the series. Less so when he turns into CC.

[Variol Farseer]

as for the wheel, i was thinking, the land probably didn't have the wheel because they dont have many horses to pull them...

BUT!

then i thought... gilden wheels! they move by themselves

lol, bumper sticker "who needs alloys, i got gilden!"

That would probably work . . . but (as SRD himself pointed out in 'What Makes Us Human'), wheels aren't a lot of good without roads, and I can't imagine the Lords allowing the Earthpower to be violated by being rolled flat and paved. Lord Foul would have had no such compunctions.

[CovenantJr]

Hmm, that's true. I still think there were things Troy knew from our world that could have helped, though.

[Variol Farseer]

Unquestionably. And in my opinion, it all comes back to this: His plan for the Warward was a tactical monstrosity conceived in total ignorance of the enemy's forces. Supposedly Troy learned his chops in Pentagon war games. I've played wargames (the non-Pentagon variety) off and on for over 25 years, and I've only ever met one gamer who would try a plan that screwy.

(That one gamer is a real yo-yo. In World in Flames, the monster WWII game from the Australian Design Group, he once played the Germans, and tried to invade Russia . . . by way of Spain! Needless to say, that didn't work. But he'd played the game so often he hardly cared anymore whether he won or lost. Troy doesn't have that excuse.)

[elmer]

I found it quite reasonable to see HT overestimate his theoretical plans and neglect the practical aspects, since he had no real experience, not even Starcraft . I think HT was successfully written to be a contrast/relief to TC's annoying character traits, to make TC's victory more satisfying knowing that military might wasn't going to cut it with Foul, and to illustrate one of the sides of belief/unbelief that Covenant needed to straddle to find his "answer to evil".

[Variol Farseer]

I found it quite reasonable to see HT overestimate his theoretical plans and neglect the practical aspects, since he had no real experience, not even Starcraft .

True, but the Warward contained people who did have real experience. And it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that making a 1000-mile march in an impossibly short time, with inadequate supplies, into a foodless desert, pursued by an enemy of unknown but certainly superior strength, is not a winning strategy. Even if the Warward had had the supplies and the numbers, Doom's Retreat was an idiotic place to conduct their defence from. It had no strategic value in itself, and a bottleneck works both ways. In Fleshharrower's place, I'd have left a covering force of a few thousand ur-viles and Cavewights to bottle Troy up in Doom's Retreat, then gone ape and destroyed every living thing in the Land while the Warward was trapped.

Of all the fields of human knowledge that SRD touches on in his books, military science is probably his weakest point. I don't hold him to blame, but it certainly damages the plausibility of his work in important places.

[CovenantJr]

True, but the Warward contained people who did have real experience.

It has always seemed to me that the Warward's lack of experience is one of the reasons Troy rose so rapidly to prominence. After all, there had been no conflict in the Land for a number of centuries, before the events of LFB. The Warward may have been well trained, but their skills were as hypothetical and untested as Troy's.

[Blue_Spawn]

In an ancient greek battle, some 300 Spartan (was it?) warriors fought off a million Persion soldiers near the path of a mountain.

THAT was a giant exception considering that the geographical elements were clearly on their side.

But for Troy, fighting off an army of millions of demonic beasts, the plan he had was pretty much the best, considering he only used foot soldiers. Now, if he had constructed weapons of mass destruction, that would be a different issue.

[UrLord]

That may be the case, but that's not the point, I think. Troy thought that he had found the single best defensible place in the entire Land, and I'm not going to argue with him there (though I would have at least sent a small group of people there ahead of time with supplies for when the army meets there), but he assumed that he was unstoppable. He didn't, as SRD would say, "respect his limitations." That was the source of all his problems.

[Variol Farseer]

In an ancient greek battle, some 300 Spartan (was it?) warriors fought off a million Persion soldiers near the path of a mountain.

THAT was a giant exception considering that the geographical elements were clearly on their side.

Not such an exception, at that. If I recall my history lessons correctly, every single one of those Spartans was killed. The Persians found a narrow goat-track running through the mountains, only wide enough for men to walk single file with care . . . but that was enough. They outflanked the Spartans and ate them for breakfast. However, the Spartans did buy enough time for the rest of the Greek forces to prepare their defences further south.

But for Troy, fighting off an army of millions of demonic beasts, the plan he had was pretty much the best, considering he only used foot soldiers. Now, if he had constructed weapons of mass destruction, that would be a different issue.

High Lord Mhoram's plan of holing up in Revelstone to withstand a siege was better. It actually worked, which is always a major plus in military matters. And that in spite of Lord Foul's winter, the loss of the Bloodguard, and samadhi's appalling exploitation of the breaking of the Law of Death. With fifty Eoward and 500 Bloodguard at her disposal, Elena could have beaten an army of almost any size on her own turf. The trick would have been getting Fleshharrower to take the bait and attack Lord's Keep.

Really, though, if you're outnumbered twenty to one and fighting over a huge, largely indefensible territory, the only viable option is a protracted guerrilla. (The people of the Land eventually figured this out on their own: see TPTP, 'The Defense of Mithil Stonedown'.) Harry the enemy's lines of supply and communication, take potshots at stragglers and scouting parties, and prevent them from foraging. It worked beautifully for the Russians in 1812. (That, and a fairly ruthless scorched-earth policy, which the Lords might not have been able to reconcile with the Oath of Peace.)

Troy's biggest asset was space. Fleshharrower had an army of 400,000, which is huge compared to the 20,000 of the Warward, but pitifully small compared to 900,000 square miles of the Upper Land. He simply didn't have enough forces to occupy all that territory, and apart from Revelstone itself (which was impregnable) and Revelwood (which was expendable) there were no real strategic centres in the whole area. Perfect indications for a guerrilla war, if you ask me.

[Skyweir]

I found it quite reasonable to see HT overestimate his theoretical plans and neglect the practical aspects, since he had no real experience, not even Starcraft .

True, but the Warward contained people who did have real experience. And it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that making a 1000-mile march in an impossibly short time, with inadequate supplies, into a foodless desert, pursued by an enemy of unknown but certainly superior strength, is not a winning strategy. Even if the Warward had had the supplies and the numbers, Doom's Retreat was an idiotic place to conduct their defence from. It had no strategic value in itself, and a bottleneck works both ways. In Fleshharrower's place, I'd have left a covering force of a few thousand ur-viles and Cavewights to bottle Troy up in Doom's Retreat, then gone ape and destroyed every living thing in the Land while the Warward was trapped.

Of all the fields of human knowledge that SRD touches on in his books, military science is probably his weakest point. I don't hold him to blame, but it certainly damages the plausibility of his work in important places.

absolutely right!! It was a crazy notion .. a notion contrived by only someone who had "no to none" operational military experience. Maybe it was being blind .. and not ever having had the operational know-how to execute a military strategy.

We only have Hile Troy's word that he was ever a military strategist! To me the only reason he rose to "prominence" was the fact that he came from an act of summoning ..

came from our world .. but moreso .. mayhap from the White Gold Wielders world.

[Variol Farseer]

We only have Hile Troy's word that he was ever a military strategist! To me the only reason he rose to "prominence" was the fact that he came from an act of summoning ..

came from our world .. but moreso .. mayhap from the White Gold Wielders world.

Rem acu tetigisti!

Still, one wonders how someone that bad at strategy beat the pants off the best minds in the Warward, as Troy is said to have done to earn the office of Warmark. (Maybe they fibbed to him about the test results, as about so many other things.)

[Skyweir]

roflmao!! lol .. well there could be that

or it was just a fluke .. how many of these alleged tests did he ace??

maybe the rest of the warward were just .. being nice

[wayfriend]

And it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that making a 1000-mile march in an impossibly short time, with inadequate supplies, into a foodless desert, pursued by an enemy of unknown but certainly superior strength, is not a winning strategy.

Whoa. I don't think that that was the initial strategy. That was plan, like, F.

BTW, this is just the kind of attempt at twisting the facts and misrepresenting the story that ... well ... that I love replying to. So keep it up.

The Warward may have been well trained, but their skills were as hypothetical and untested as Troy's.

That's a fair statement, and an insight I hadn't thought of.

Troy's biggest asset was space. Fleshharrower had an army of 400,000, which is huge compared to the 20,000 of the Warward, but pitifully small compared to 900,000 square miles of the Upper Land. He simply didn't have enough forces to occupy all that territory, and apart from Revelstone itself (which was impregnable) and Revelwood (which was expendable) there were no real strategic centres in the whole area. Perfect indications for a guerrilla war, if you ask me.

I cannot agree with that. First of all, this would cross the Oath of Peace in too many places. Second, and more importantly, the people of the Land could not condone a strategy that would allow Revelstone, Revelwood, Trothgard, stonedowns, woodhelven, etc. to be destroyed. In other words, they had a bigger weakness, that being that they were defending not only themselves, but the Land itself.

[CovenantJr]

That's true. Military forces generally (at least, as far as I can tell) deal with "acceptable losses", such as sacrificing Revelwood. But the army of the Land, as you say, wouldn't do that. Makes things very tricky indeed. Good insight.

And it doesn't take a military genius to recognize that making a 1000-mile march in an impossibly short time, with inadequate supplies, into a foodless desert, pursued by an enemy of unknown but certainly superior strength, is not a winning strategy.

Whoa. I don't think that that was the initial strategy. That was plan, like, F.

To the best of my recollection, that was the strategy all along, except for the desert. The retreat to Doriendor Corishev and the subsequent flight to Garrotting Deep were unplanned, but the insanely long and punishing march was the original strategy.

[Variol Farseer]

BTW, this is just the kind of attempt at twisting the facts and misrepresenting the story that ... well ... that I love replying to. So keep it up.

Them's fightin' words. I am neither twisting facts nor misrepresenting anything. If you really want to challenge me on that, I will prove my point by exact and extensive quotations, to the limit allowed by copyright law. If you are not prepared for that kind of argument, I suggest you retract your accusation.

I cannot agree with that. First of all, this would cross the Oath of Peace in too many places. Second, and more importantly, the people of the Land could not condone a strategy that would allow Revelstone, Revelwood, Trothgard, stonedowns, woodhelven, etc. to be destroyed. In other words, they had a bigger weakness, that being that they were defending not only themselves, but the Land itself.

Well, tough luck for them. By following a losing strategy, they guaranteed that all those places would be destroyed. It was only Covenant's personal victory over Lord Foul that saved the Land from total destruction.

Troy's strategy did not defend anything at all except Doom's Retreat. It put the whole Warward at the extreme edge of the Land and gave the Despiser free rein to attack everything else in sight. So by choosing that plan, the people of the Land not only condoned but endorsed a strategy that did all the things you said they could not.

[Skyweir]

Whoa. I don't think that that was the initial strategy. That was plan, like, F. [/quote]
To the best of my recollection, that was the strategy all along, except for the desert. The retreat to Doriendor Corishev and the subsequent flight to Garrotting Deep were unplanned, but the insanely long and punishing march was the original strategy.[/quote]

yeah and what a tactical masterpiece that was

[CovenantJr]

As I said - he's a berk

[Blue_Spawn]

If Troy was smarter than that, we wouldn't have had all the interesting, suspenceful plot created in the novel. So deal with it

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Bump for drew. and humor.