Kevin's Watch

jimdwa wrote:

KAY1 wrote:Prothall or someone had said to Tuvor that they had got past some obstacle or someone was safe, I can't remember exactly what; then Tuvor said to Covenant 'True?' for confirmation.

It was something like " I have freed the moon" when Prothal had finally gotten the Staff of Law from Drool. That happened in the same scene. That could be what Tuvor meant. He knew then that the Quest had been successful and he could let go and die.

Hey, folks, I finally got around to checking LFB. The moment where Prothall says the moon is free actually occurs after Tuvor has died.

Allow me to quote the passage relevant to Tuvor's death so that we're all clear on how the scene played out:

Tuvor shuddered; his eyes opened. Covenant looked away from Prothall. Tuvor's lips moved, but he made no sound.

Mhoram tried to comfort him. "Have no fear. This evil will be overcome--it is in the High Lord's hands. And your name will be remembered with honor wherever trust is valued."

But Tuvor's eyes held Covenant, and he managed to whisper one word, "True?" His whole body strained with supplication, but Covenant did not know whether he asked for a promise or a judgment.

Yet the Unbeliever answered. He could not refuse a Bloodguard, could not deny the appeal of such expensive fidelity. The word stuck in his throat, but he forced it out. "Yes."

Tuvor shuddered again, and died with a flat groan as if the chord of his Vow had snapped. Covenant gripped his shoulders, shook him; there was no response.

Reading that, I'm guessing Tuvor was asking for confirmation that he indeed would be remembered with honor -- as if any Bloodguard would need to ask. Or maybe Tuvor wanted to know if "this evil" they were fighting would truly be overcome?

In either case, it's curious that Tuvor at the last wanted an answer from Covenant, not from Lord Mhoram. Did Tuvor intuit some link between the Haruchai and the Unbeliever? Did Tuvor believe or sense somehow that only the wielder of white gold could supply the absolute answer his Vow required? Maybe this is all wild speculation on my part, but I only bring up these questions because I'm reminded that in TIW, High Lord Elena does intuitively grasp a congruence between Covenant and the Bloodguard in the form of her marrowmeld sculpture that resembles both Bannor and the Unbeliever. Both "require absolute answers to their lives." Maybe Tuvor sensed that connection earlier than anyone else.

Highlord Mhoram has got to be my favorite character. A Lord of the Land is what I would have striven to be if I was a part of this world. And who was better than he? He by far was the most gifted of the "new" Lords of the Land (except maybe Elena). When I think of Mhoram, I think of him rideing his Ranyhin into a mass of ur-viles, and then taking on, and defeating a giant-raver. Awesome!!!

Yeah - Mhoram quickly became my favorite character. I think the chapter Lord Mhoram's Victory is not only some of SRDs best writing, I think it's one of the best chapters in fantasy, period.

And speaking of a TC movie (which we're not), that would make one he$# of a scene.

Re Tuvor:

I think he was asking Covenant for both — a promise and a judgement. Would the ur-Lord white gold wielder say that the Bloodguard had been true to their Vow? And — since Tuvor must have seen in his dying moment that the Vow could not defeat Despite, for he himself had failed, and he was not the First Mark for nothing — would the ur-Lord himself be true, and honour the sacrifices of the dead by defeating the Despiser for them?

Quite a lot to pack into one word, but then, the Haruchai are not wasters of words. And it was at that moment, I think, that Covenant first found himself making an ethical commitment to the Land and against Despite that could not be forgotten or called back.

*nods (fractionally) at VF*

Having reread Lord Foul's Bane recently, I've decided that Foamfollower is definitely my favourite character. The first time round I liked him, but always found him a bit... I dunno. I was never THAT interested.

But he's just so... wonderful. So selfless and supportive. I can't wait to get to The Power That Preserves just so I can see him again!

Bannor without a doubt.

I wonder exactly why Tuvor isn't considered a failure but Morin is. In fact, Morin saved Elena from getting crushed by Kevin, and yet still is considered by the "Second Chronicles" Haruchai as being a failure.

As to Tuvor's question, I had the distinct impression that Tuvor didn't necessarily trust the answer he had received from Mhoram, but knew (or believed) that Covenant wouldn't lie to him.

Mine is Lord Mhoram, he plyed the "Gandalf" role but he lacked any pompousness and was the most noble character of all. And you have to respect someone with that amount of patience and understanding

Borillar wrote:I wonder exactly why Tuvor isn't considered a failure but Morin is. In fact, Morin saved Elena from getting crushed by Kevin, and yet still is considered by the "Second Chronicles" Haruchai as being a failure.

Likely it's because Prothall lived, so Tuvor didn't fail in his duty; but Elena died, and there is no excuse for Morin having failed in his duty.

I haven't looked back, so if this is a repeat, please forgive me. My favorite character is Lord Mhoram. He feared the most, he could have desecrated the Land, and yet he put his life and (his honor) before the Land. It's a pity that he is somewhat of a Gandalf character, externally, because to many readers it lessens him. However, for those who followed through the first three books, they can see him for what he is: a man of uncompromising morals and a man who weighed what was best for his home, and what was best for his millennium. Uncertain of which was the most certain, he chose what he thought what was his for his "millennium". "Lord Mohram's Victory" remains - to me - one of the best chapters in all of fantasy literature. And not simply for the gallantry or the sacrifice, but also for the writing. It is some of SRDs best writing to date.

A giant. They are great.

Burgs, i agree with what you have to say, but why does being a Gandalf character lessen Mhoram? Do you mean in the sense that it takes away his originality? For me, being put in the same bracket as Gandalf is the highest accolade any character can receive.

Mhoram is a Gandalf character, but he's definitely not Gandalf. He shares the same sense of compassion, the wisdom, and the power, but he lacks the arrogance and has much more patience.

Many of the characters in The Chronicles bare direct comparison to Lord of the Rings equivalents, at least in terms of role. Foul is a Sauron character, the Ravers compare to Ringwraiths, Foamfollower to Sam, Elena to Boromir. But this is no bad thing, and they are different enough to be original.

I just said that it may have lessened his characters in the eyes of other readers.

This is probably the kind of thing that Hollywood producers are pointing to and saying, "this is too much LOTR". Externally, there is much in the First Chronicles that resemble LOTR, but we all know that SRD has made all of them his own.

Frankly, I don't see any particular resemblance between Mhoram and Gandalf. Sure, they're both wizards (of a sort), and they're both 'Good Guys'. So is Harry Potter, but nobody thinks of him as a Gandalf figure.

The absolutely crucial difference, to my mind, is that Mhoram is human, and we see much of the story from his (very human) point of view; whereas Gandalf is almost literally a deus ex machina, and keeps his own counsel far more often than he reveals it.

As I originally stated, the similarities are external, not internal.

Variol Farseer wrote:Frankly, I don't see any particular resemblance between Mhoram and Gandalf. Sure, they're both wizards (of a sort), and they're both 'Good Guys'. So is Harry Potter, but nobody thinks of him as a Gandalf figure.

The absolutely crucial difference, to my mind, is that Mhoram is human, and we see much of the story from his (very human) point of view; whereas Gandalf is almost literally a deus ex machina, and keeps his own counsel far more often than he reveals it.

They play similar roles (although Gandalf acts at a higher strategic level. He is effectively the Chief Executive of the free peoples in LOTR. Mhoram is somewhere lower down the chain; at least until PTP).

But both Gandalf and Mhoram play "Merlin", i.e. chief advisor to the principle character. Both embody, to an extent, the supernatural force of light , and both are used as the principal mouthpieces of wisdom by the respective authors.

Personality wise, they are different, I agree, but I'm not crticising SRD when i say that I think Gandalf inspired the creation of Mhoram.