Kevin's Watch

Leprosy isn't supposed to be all that contagious but I recall
Linden's little mental tickertape telling her the only significant
way that it was contagious was TO children.

And remember Covenant's story to Foamfollower about
culture shock where he talked about how if the man in
his story had been diagnosed with leprosy in his home
country he and his entire family would have been sent
off to a leper colony where they all would have died of
leprosy?

I guess the point I'm getting at is that as Covenant said
in _The Wounded Land_ even HE believed Joan was justified
in what she did for years ... so why do you have any reason
to expect that Joan would have been any more mature about
it than Covenant?

Btw, does anyone know what the actual status is of leprosy
treatment now? Is there an actual cure for the disease? If
there is, what do you think would have happened to Covenant
if he was cured? After all those years of isolation, could he
have reintegrated back into society?

From typing "leprosy" into Yahoo you get a lot of results with info, including:

World Health Organization
www.who.int/lep/

an American leprosy organization
www.leprosy.org/

It seems, from the WHO's site, that it can be pretty much controlled/cured with a combination of drugs. Some sites (such as www.ilep.org.uk and www.bomlep.org) mention eradicating the disease, so things seem to definitely have progressed.

So...on to the common cold.... How about it, science?

W.B. wrote:It seems, from the WHO's site, that it can be pretty much controlled/cured with a combination of drugs. Some sites (such as www.ilep.org.uk and www.bomlep.org) mention eradicating the disease, so things seem to definitely have progressed.

I'm glad to hear this. However, let us remember that the original storyline was conceived of almost 30 years ago (LFB was published first in 1977 and it surely took at least a couple years to write in the first place). I'm betting that, at the time, much less was known about leprosy and there were fewer options when treating it.

We should keep the time period and advances (or lack thereof) in mind when interpreting Joan's reaction to TC's disease. While I'm at it, let me say that we should also keep in mind the social and political climate of the early-mid 70's as well. Viewed in that light, the behavior we see in the beginning of LFB doesn't seem all that out-of-character, at least to me.

-Mouseglove

Absolutely. I wasn't suggesting that that refuted info given in the Chronicles, or that Joan's reaction was completely out-of-line. Apparently, according to online info, it was only in the early 80s that the current multi-drug therapy came into practice. It was developed after the disease started to become resistant to the sulfate dapsome that had been used previously to stop the disease's progress. So at the time of the novels, it couldn't really be "cured." (I typed "history of leprosy" into Yahoo and copied and pasted one of the timelines I found below if anyone's interested.)

I rather agree with those who think Joan's reaction was, though not admirable, psychologically understandable. There's a definite stigma attached to the disease--in what other case are you called a disease ("a leper" instead of "someone with the flu")?

Also, by chance I found reference in the link below to a leper colony in Louisianna. I'd always kind of pictured the "real" world part of the Chronicles being in Missouri for some totally subjective and unexplainable reason. Ah, well.

www.wooster.edu/biology/Ciliates/diseas ... story.html

Brief History of Leprosy in the Modern World

Dr. Armauer Hansen of Norway was the first to see the leprosy germ under a microscope. This was 1873, and Hansen's discovery was revolutionary. The evidence was clear for all the world: leprosy is caused by a germ (Mycobacterium leprae). It was not hereditary, a curse, or from sin.

From the early 1900s through the late 1940s, leprosy doctors in Africa, Asia, the Far East, South America and elsewhere injected patients with oil from the chaulmoogra nut. This painful treatment appeared to work for some patients. Long term benefits were questionable, though.

1941 saw the introduction of PROMIN for leprosy treatment at "Carville," the U.S. Public Health Service facility in Louisiana. There was a painful downside to promin: it required too many injections.

Dr. R.G. Cochrane was a pioneer in the use of DAPSONE pills which became the treatment of choice during the 1950s. Disappointment followed, though, as the leprosy bacilli began developing dapsone resistance. The germs were becoming smarter than the medicine.

SUCCESS, AT LAST: Drug trials on the island of Malta in the 1970s led to an effective combination of drugs to treat leprosy. In 1981, the World Health Organization started recommending MULTIDRUG THERAPY, or MDT. The three drugs, taken in combination, are dapsone, rifampicin (or rifampin), and clofazimine. Treatment takes from six months to a year or more.

I've always thought that the choice of leprosy was a stroke of a genius. For one, it has a stigma attached to it since biblical times and all medical advances aside I am sure most people think of it as they had read it in the Holy Book. For two, it makes TC numb in a world where feeling is everything, which adds heaps to his inbelief and when he at last regains his feelings makes the loss of that all even more cruel.
Maybe if he wrote LFB today he would choose AIDS - but AIDS doesn't make its victims explicitly numb.

this is a very interesting and instructive thread--thought newbies in particullar would enjoy this

KaosArcana wrote:I guess the point I'm getting at is that as Covenant said in The Wounded Land even HE believed Joan was justified
in what she did for years

This is what makes me so sad about the whole story, and about a lot of things in life in general. Someone, like TC, gets treated like s*** and they believe that it is deserved or justified because they are gay, or black, or a woman, or a leper, or disabled, or whatever they are that society tells them isn't the best possible thing to be. I try not to judge Joan, but I do judge the society that convinced TC to agree with her.

Sum sui generis
Vs

As for evil, all I can say is: consider what Lord Foul, Kasreyn of the Gyre, Master Eremis, Nick Succorso, and Holt Fasner have in common.

What do they have in common people? Ideas? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Sum sui generis
Vs

pitiful ego-lust

That's probably it. I can't think of any other commonality between all of those characters, other than ego. They were only concerned for the betterment of themselves, and to hell with anyone else that they had to stop on to get to their own goals.

Someone write this one down and remember to ask him at Elohimfest.

Kevin's Watch is destroyed! Boom!

Ard Rhys

P.S. And not the website. Long may it stand.

... and they use its broken shards to build the statues of TC and Linden. 100 foot tall, on either side of the Soulsease, right outside of Treacher's Gorge. A creation that is part suru-pa-maerl and part anundivian yajna.

Boy, I can hardly wait to hear what Linden's reaction is when she sees THEM.

variol son wrote:

As for evil, all I can say is: consider what Lord Foul, Kasreyn of the Gyre, Master Eremis, Nick Succorso, and Holt Fasner have in common.

What do they have in common people? Ideas? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Sum sui generis
Vs

Each had an absolute desire for one thing that they didn't yet have [Escape from the Arch for LF; Immortality for Kasreyn and Holt; somebody help me with Eremis and Succorso---it's been too long since I've read the books!]. This one thing was so desireable that they would stop at nothing to get it, so this absolute both defined and limited their characters, as their characters tend to be the ones that do not develop or change throughout the story.

Does this explanation also define them all as villains?

DW
[Weird, warped, and Warrenbridged]

Forgot another point. Someone asked why Angus wasn't on the aforementioned list. Angus changed for the better, and ended up more of an anti-hero than a villain--unwillingly, but is there any other way for an anti-hero?

The Ravers aren't on the list, either. They are merely Foul's lieutenants, carrying out his designs rather than coming up with any of their own.

Other nasty characters (Kasreyn's croyel, Sorus Chatelaine, Drool Rockworm, the bugger Master from MN whose name escapes me, Cleatus Fane(sp?--the evil Santa Claus from the Gap )) are also missing from the list either because they are the Diet Cokes of evil----not evil enough----- or because they didn't have especially grand plans.

DW
[Weird, warped, and Wightbarrowed]

pretty darn good and enlightening analysis DW--yes Fane always weirded me (in a bad way, not a Waynhim way, mind u). Bugger-master is Gilbur, btw...

danlo wrote:pretty darn good and enlightening analysis DW--yes Fane always weirded me (in a bad way, not a Waynhim way, mind u). Bugger-master is Gilbur, btw...

DW
[Waynhim-Weird, warped, and Wapner-ific]

variol son wrote:

As for evil, all I can say is: consider what Lord Foul, Kasreyn of the Gyre, Master Eremis, Nick Succorso, and Holt Fasner have in common.

What do they have in common people? Ideas? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Sum sui generis
Vs

I think it might have something to do with perfection of themselves.

wow outrageous!! dammit i dont have time to read it all .. but wow outrageous!!!!

far freaking out!! awesome news!!

be back