Elena coming on to Thomas

[jonnyredleader]

I couldnt agree more Vraith, I didn't see her as trying to save the land herself, her last act with the power of command was in part protecting covenant from his fate of using the wild magic, she mentions preserving him a couple of times. That's not manipulation that's love.

Not to forget it's Elena, not Mhoram or foamfollower or Bannor that teaches covenant to love and finally forces him to confront his destiny. Could covenant have been manipulated to do this and for years afterwards? She opened up that capacity in him that let Linden meet a very different man than the one who first appeared in the land.
Her love and treatment of him broke down those barriers, he couldn't take advantage of Elena as he had Lena because she stood up to him and offered more of herself. All his manipulative behaviuors simply became powerless even when he tells her, she forgives him and he realises with this woman there is no point, she is willing to give him everything freely. Love

[Orlion]

Elena is a complicated character... more so than would appear at first. I mean, which other character gives rise to so many interpretations? Hell, even in my re-reads, she's gone from 'clearly and utterly insane' to 'capable, who would have thought she'd fail?'

I'm still not sure what to think of her. At the one end, she did break the Law of Death either through misplaced confidence or creepy love, or whatever. At the same time, she should never have known of the Power of Command to begin with. I imagine it was the 'last Ward' for a reason. No one in the council was ready for it, it'd be like handing freedom fighters a nuclear bomb. No matter their intentions, they're not ready or capable of using it 'properly' and something will go wrong.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I never thought Elena saw Covenant through pink glasses as a perfect knightly hero. What she says about her childhood in tIEW doesn't fit with this and the poor deranged woman we meet in tPtP, her mother Lena, doesn't fit this either.

From what she says it's obvious that Covenant was the shadow that wrecked her whole family and robbed her of a normal childhood. The only one who was there for her was Triok. Her mother was too caught up in her own private world, her grandparents were either absent or filled with hate to the Unbeliever, the other villagers viewed her with pity or suspicion.

Triok was the only one who rose above his circumstances and gave a stable anchor to her life. He's the one who instills the Oath of Peace into her and thereby enables her to forgive Covenant for what he did to her and her family.

She tries to give him the same gift when she meets him. If she makes him a good and worthy person, if she manages to erase the crime he perpetrated against her and her family, the smirch and pain of her family and herself would be erased to some degree.

What's more, it's not just her mother that's raped. I always viewed what the Ranyhym did to her as a rape. The thing is, with both Covenant's rape of Lena and the Ranyhyn's rape of her, the perpetrators were figures beyond reproach. Elena had to bury her private perceptions in the face of the public consensus. While Covenant could be blamed, the Ranyhyn were always too sanctified to do the same and hiding this thing even from herself perverted her and opened the way to some of the things that happened to her later in life.

[jonnyredleader]

That's an awesome observation, you're right she's not stupid or blind to her own inner vehemence. She even mentions it to covenant when her gaze first shocks him. She rises above all the pain and acts in a way no other person in her family except triock who raised her was able to do.
She even recognises the instability of her mother and yet refers to it in a way that suggests she understands her mothers feelings, something she refers to at revelstone when she tells TC he misunderstands both of them when he expects a reproach. She really believes in the oath of peace and achieves something the others couldn't, but you do still see the struggle in her sometimes, like when her ranyhyn dies.
But it's goes quickly and the part of her that is Lena takes over.

[Vraith]

I never thought Elena saw Covenant through pink glasses as a perfect knightly hero. What she says about her childhood in tIEW doesn't fit with this and the poor deranged woman we meet in tPtP, her mother Lena, doesn't fit this either.

From what she says it's obvious that Covenant was the shadow that wrecked her whole family and robbed her of a normal childhood. The only one who was there for her was Triok. Her mother was too caught up in her own private world, her grandparents were either absent or filled with hate to the Unbeliever, the other villagers viewed her with pity or suspicion.

Triok was the only one who rose above his circumstances and gave a stable anchor to her life. He's the one who instills the Oath of Peace into her and thereby enables her to forgive Covenant for what he did to her and her family.

She tries to give him the same gift when she meets him. If she makes him a good and worthy person, if she manages to erase the crime he perpetrated against her and her family, the smirch and pain of her family and herself would be erased to some degree.

What's more, it's not just her mother that's raped. I always viewed what the Ranyhym did to her as a rape. The thing is, with both Covenant's rape of Lena and the Ranyhyn's rape of her, the perpetrators were figures beyond reproach. Elena had to bury her private perceptions in the face of the public consensus. While Covenant could be blamed, the Ranyhyn were always too sanctified to do the same and hiding this thing even from herself perverted her and opened the way to some of the things that happened to her later in life.

Wow. This is one of those posts that happen occasionally that are just great, even though I disagree almost entirely...especially since I was thinking for the most part of the same incidents/explanations for my point.
I agree she doesn't see TC as perfect [and probably never did except perhaps in the time/ways that most of us see parents as perfect...most especially, it should be noted, when they are not actually present in our lives]. But she does know he is pivotal/essential. And paradoxical.
When you say Triock is the one who saved her, I agree...but that is because she [perhaps we all are, or wish we were at least sometimes] is born to love, AND because though TC is responsible for the rape of her mother [and its effects on Lena], he isn't responsible for any of the rest of it. AND, most important, Triock is RIGHT. In the world of the Land...opposite of ours...where good/beauty are tangible/sensible, bullies do not beget bullies, abuse does not spawn abusers. Triock and consensus do not force her to suppress her perceptions. They only encourage her to examine them...which she does, IMO demonstrating it by telling TC of her life. My reading of it was that in almost every way she resembles TC in this. He NEVER forgave/justified his action, NEVER claimed he had made up for it, NEVER suggested it was anything except an evil that may have had causes/explanations, but did not and cannot be "made up for." She doesn't either. She fully understands all of that. She also understands a lot of other stuff...like his belief/unbelief to a greater extent than most outside the books give credit for. "Rape is inexcusable" is true "I raped somebody in a dream, therefore I'm guilty of rape" is...well...there just isn't a word I know strong enough to describe the absurdity of that. Yet she is in a position to have to live/judge/act based on that absurdity squared. The only thing she does not understand is that she, personally, can be wrong...and in a very specific way. Very briefly like this: IF TC can do wrong and learn/transcend it, IF so much wrong can be in a life yet she [with Triock as model, btw] can learn/transcend it] THEN Kevin...who did the greatest wrong ever, as far as she knows, has learned from it after death...because he was not innately evil, just wrong and blind and loved the world [sound familiar?] and can transcend it.
I could go one delving into this issue and its implications for a very long time, but won't.
But, one last thing: if you are going to count what the Rhany did as "rape" you have to count pretty much the entirety of life, learning, experience, and education as rape.
Heh...actually, if you want to go down that road...there is a case to be made that might be decently arguable, worth examining...and we might even be on the same side at least sometimes.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Wow. This is one of those posts that happen occasionally that are just great, even though I disagree almost entirely...especially since I was thinking for the most part of the same incidents/explanations for my point.
I agree she doesn't see TC as perfect [and probably never did except perhaps in the time/ways that most of us see parents as perfect...most especially, it should be noted, when they are not actually present in our lives]. But she does know he is pivotal/essential. And paradoxical.
When you say Triock is the one who saved her, I agree...but that is because she [perhaps we all are, or wish we were at least sometimes] is born to love, AND because though TC is responsible for the rape of her mother [and its effects on Lena], he isn't responsible for any of the rest of it. AND, most important, Triock is RIGHT. In the world of the Land...opposite of ours...where good/beauty are tangible/sensible, bullies do not beget bullies, abuse does not spawn abusers. Triock and consensus do not force her to suppress her perceptions. They only encourage her to examine them...which she does, IMO demonstrating it by telling TC of her life. My reading of it was that in almost every way she resembles TC in this. He NEVER forgave/justified his action, NEVER claimed he had made up for it, NEVER suggested it was anything except an evil that may have had causes/explanations, but did not and cannot be "made up for." She doesn't either. She fully understands all of that. She also understands a lot of other stuff...like his belief/unbelief to a greater extent than most outside the books give credit for. "Rape is inexcusable" is true "I raped somebody in a dream, therefore I'm guilty of rape" is...well...there just isn't a word I know strong enough to describe the absurdity of that. Yet she is in a position to have to live/judge/act based on that absurdity squared. The only thing she does not understand is that she, personally, can be wrong...and in a very specific way. Very briefly like this: IF TC can do wrong and learn/transcend it, IF so much wrong can be in a life yet she [with Triock as model, btw] can learn/transcend it] THEN Kevin...who did the greatest wrong ever, as far as she knows, has learned from it after death...because he was not innately evil, just wrong and blind and loved the world [sound familiar?] and can transcend it.
I could go one delving into this issue and its implications for a very long time, but won't.
But, one last thing: if you are going to count what the Rhany did as "rape" you have to count pretty much the entirety of life, learning, experience, and education as rape.
Heh...actually, if you want to go down that road...there is a case to be made that might be decently arguable, worth examining...and we might even be on the same side at least sometimes.

Good post though quite dense. That's a great point about Kevin. Never thought about it from that perspective.

I suppose we don't disagree that much about the Rhany-ride in the end? Sure a lot of things can be a little bit rapish but some thing are very much rapish

[peter]

I'm sorry Guys. Maybe I'm not clever enough or just missing something obvious, but I can't get this idea that the Rahnyn 'raped' Lena in a metaphorical sense. Where does this come from. My memories of the relationship between L and the Ranhyn are those of love and gifting - not of abuse and cruelty (which the very term 'rape' connotes at it's essence.) What am I missing here?

[Holsety]

From what she says it's obvious that Covenant was the shadow that wrecked her whole family and robbed her of a normal childhood. The only one who was there for her was Triok. Her mother was too caught up in her own private world, her grandparents were either absent or filled with hate to the Unbeliever, the other villagers viewed her with pity or suspicion.

Triok was the only one who rose above his circumstances and gave a stable anchor to her life. He's the one who instills the Oath of Peace into her and thereby enables her to forgive Covenant for what he did to her and her family.

But here's the thing, I think that she might not have that outlook, even though I agree it's a valid outlook. Because of the ranyhyn oath and because of Lena, she might believe that Covenant does still have love for her mother and maybe, had he known of her, would have love for her. It depends upon how she read the sending of the ranyhyn, as atonement or as interest.

I'm also missing why the ranyhyn thing was necessarily rape, but I don't remember the books that well right now so I'd be interested in seeing arguments.

[Orlion]

From what she says it's obvious that Covenant was the shadow that wrecked her whole family and robbed her of a normal childhood. The only one who was there for her was Triok. Her mother was too caught up in her own private world, her grandparents were either absent or filled with hate to the Unbeliever, the other villagers viewed her with pity or suspicion.

Triok was the only one who rose above his circumstances and gave a stable anchor to her life. He's the one who instills the Oath of Peace into her and thereby enables her to forgive Covenant for what he did to her and her family.

But here's the thing, I think that she might not have that outlook, even though I agree it's a valid outlook. Because of the ranyhyn oath and because of Lena, she might believe that Covenant does still have love for her mother and maybe, had he known of her, would have love for her. It depends upon how she read the sending of the ranyhyn, as atonement or as interest.

I'm also missing why the ranyhyn thing was necessarily rape, but I don't remember the books that well right now so I'd be interested in seeing arguments.

I don't think the sending of the Ranyhyn is ever meant to be seen as 'rape'. Other things, sure, but not rape. This is do to Donaldson's underlying belief that rape is a crime of passion, specifically anger. Covenant did not send the Ranyhyn out of anger (well.... not any anger a leper normally has, anyway ), but out of atonement. The problem is that even doing our bestest to help someone does not necessarily accomplish the desired result. And example of this is the Land's almost continual insistence that they use hurtloam to heal Covenant. It's always done out of the noblest intentions, but it actually hurts Covenant rather than heal him... it clouds that characteristic of him that he needs to be the hero. Likewise, sending the Ranyhyn to Lena was an attempt at making amends, but it didn't actually address the actual wound and probably covered it up so it could fester.

[jonnyredleader]

just after the landslide Elena reproaches Covenant by agreeing that the accident was his fault, but underneath there seemed a deeper accusation.
she says it was indeed his fault he should not have sent the Ranyhyn to Lena her mother.
what does she mean by that?

She talks earlier in revelstone about how lucky she was as a child to have shared the gift with her mum, that not many children in the land had been so fortunate, a direct gift from covenant, a link?
im not sure that rape is how she felt about this, but again why did she say that he shouldnt have sent them?

This character is so complex

[sindatur]

just after the landslide Elena reproaches Covenant by agreeing that the accident was his fault, but underneath there seemed a deeper accusation.
she says it was indeed his fault he should not have sent the Ranyhyn to Lena her mother.
what does she mean by that?

She talks earlier in revelstone about how lucky she was as a child to have shared the gift with her mum, that not many children in the land had been so fortunate, a direct gift from covenant, a link?
im not sure that rape is how she felt about this, but again why did she say that he shouldnt have sent them?

This character is so complex

I say it was grief. She's feeling "Better to have not loved at all, then to have loved and lost"

As far as the Ranyhan having raped her, I think the Horserite could pretty much count as mental rape.

[Vraith]

This character is so complex

I say it was grief. She's feeling "Better to have not loved at all, then to have loved and lost"

As far as the Ranyhan having raped her, I think the Horserite could pretty much count as mental rape.

On the first, that's almost surely part of it. I think also part of it is the continual coming of them was like a continually reiterated promise from TC, reinforcing the dissonance in her between the rape and other side of TC, keeping her from actually confronting and coming to terms with the rape.

On the second, yea that's the direction of the argument I thought SShoe could make a reasonable case for. There are issues of consent and others much like rape. OTOH there is a case for the other side that kinda resembles setting a shattered bone...it's gonna hurt like hell, but it's gotta be done for any chance it will heal/repair. Because the Rhany know the flaw in her mind, and the horserite is their attempt to get it to heal.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I'm sorry Guys. Maybe I'm not clever enough or just missing something obvious, but I can't get this idea that the Rahnyn 'raped' Lena in a metaphorical sense. Where does this come from. My memories of the relationship between L and the Ranhyn are those of love and gifting - not of abuse and cruelty (which the very term 'rape' connotes at it's essence.) What am I missing here?

I see there were some replies in this thread since I've been here. Anyway,

Let's see if I remember all the details. What I'm talking about is the horserite Elena is taken to.

Elena is a child (aged 12? I don't remember the exact age) they let her mount one of them and take off at a run to the mountains, in essence violently kidnapping her. She's given no choice to return or leave. Either she goes with them or she dies. They gallop non stop for a couple of days until they reach the valley where they do their remembrance ritual.

At this point she is mentally violated with powerful, unpleasant memories she cannot resist. She is also physically raped I would argue. She may not be sexually assaulted as in ordinary rape scenes but the similarities are striking: a hoard of powerful figures surround her from all sides and force her to participate in their ritual. She is made to circle the dale with them until she loses consciousness.

There is also the whole secrecy aspect of this story. She is taken while alone and afterward tells no one of what happened to her until before the end she reveals it to Covenant.

OTOH there is a case for the other side that kinda resembles setting a shattered bone...it's gonna hurt like hell, but it's gotta be done for any chance it will heal/repair. Because the Rhany know the flaw in her mind, and the horserite is their attempt to get it to heal.

This is the ends justify the means argument, isn't it? My response to this type of argument is that theoretically a God-like being with perfect knowledge of all possible consequences could justify raping you by saying it is for the greater good but as the Rhanyhyn amply prove in this instance they are not such beings and they in fact instigated the whole Law-breaking they were trying to prevent with this action. Because our knowledge is imperfect we need to put far greater weight on our immediate actions because those are the ones we are most certain about how they will turn out. Furthermore, this type of justification usually covers better solutions that more forethought and consideration would have found. The rhanyhyn could have warned Elena in better and less traumatic ways. The whole forced horserite wasn't by any means the only possible way. A use of their Ramen comes to mind.

I don't think the sending of the Ranyhyn is ever meant to be seen as 'rape'. Other things, sure, but not rape. This is do to Donaldson's underlying belief that rape is a crime of passion, specifically anger. Covenant did not send the Ranyhyn out of anger (well.... not any anger a leper normally has, anyway Razz ), but out of atonement. The problem is that even doing our bestest to help someone does not necessarily accomplish the desired result. And example of this is the Land's almost continual insistence that they use hurtloam to heal Covenant. It's always done out of the noblest intentions, but it actually hurts Covenant rather than heal him... it clouds that characteristic of him that he needs to be the hero. Likewise, sending the Ranyhyn to Lena was an attempt at making amends, but it didn't actually address the actual wound and probably covered it up so it could fester.

Isn't Lord Foul the untimate rapist of the Chronicles? Foul certainly isn't a spur of the moment kind of guy most of the time. He's extremely calculating in his raping-schemes. The rape of Elena is not done by Covenant but by the Rhanyhyn. They are free agents and decide to take Elena to their horserite by themselves.

[Vraith]

OTOH there is a case for the other side that kinda resembles setting a shattered bone...it's gonna hurt like hell, but it's gotta be done for any chance it will heal/repair. Because the Rhany know the flaw in her mind, and the horserite is their attempt to get it to heal.

This is the ends justify the means argument, isn't it? My response to this type of argument is that theoretically a God-like being with perfect knowledge of all possible consequences could justify raping you by saying it is for the greater good

No, it isn't, at least in the normal sense. Because she is already sick.

But like I said, a fairly strong argument can be made along your lines. Still, the end point of it is that any action of any kind one takes for any reason that ever could affect anyone else at all negatively is a kind of rape unless you have complete informed consent from everyone involved. Hell, taken to extremes in this path one could rape oneself. And that assumes their is such a thing as true informed consent.

[shadowbinding shoe]

OTOH there is a case for the other side that kinda resembles setting a shattered bone...it's gonna hurt like hell, but it's gotta be done for any chance it will heal/repair. Because the Rhany know the flaw in her mind, and the horserite is their attempt to get it to heal.

This is the ends justify the means argument, isn't it? My response to this type of argument is that theoretically a God-like being with perfect knowledge of all possible consequences could justify raping you by saying it is for the greater good

No, it isn't, at least in the normal sense. Because she is already sick.

But like I said, a fairly strong argument can be made along your lines. Still, the end point of it is that any action of any kind one takes for any reason that ever could affect anyone else at all negatively is a kind of rape unless you have complete informed consent from everyone involved. Hell, taken to extremes in this path one could rape oneself. And that assumes their is such a thing as true informed consent.

So if she's sick (due to a rapish beginning) the answer is to perform more of the same?

This wasn't even close to 'complete informed consent'. It was quite the opposite of that, in fact.

[sindatur]

Did they do it to heal her mind? Or was it specifically to do with disuading her from making decisions that they believed would have catastrophic consequences? I don't recall any intention aimed at healing her mind specifically?

[shadowbinding shoe]

Did they do it to heal her mind? Or was it specifically to do with disuading her from making decisions that they believed would have catastrophic consequences? I don't recall any intention aimed at healing her mind specifically?

The later. The plan, as explained in the last chronicles,

Spoiler

was to make her realize that Kevin was stupid to do his ritual of desecration by showing her the similar (in their eyes) stupid decision of the father of horses to sacrifice himself to Lord Foul.

[Vraith]

Did they do it to heal her mind? Or was it specifically to do with disuading her from making decisions that they believed would have catastrophic consequences? I don't recall any intention aimed at healing her mind specifically?

I think it's the same thing. Much like an essential part of treating/curing depression involves teaching/lessons about depression.

Sshoe-she didn't have a rapish beginning, unless you want to follow a path that leads to an original sin and unto the seventh generation thing, and lay all the blame on TC, who she'd never met, and not one bit of it on any of the people who were actually there and actually responsible for her well-being and should have been taking care of her.
And you can't ignore her view of it. Does she think of it as rape? Does she now? Did she then? I don't have the books near me, but I don't remember it being that way. A hard lesson...but not rape.

[jonnyredleader]

i think the ranyhyns hatred of foul and what he did to the father of horses was the motivation of the horserite. they recognised in Elena a potential champion with the capacity like covenant to save or damn the land, the horserite was intended to give her the neccessary passion and guidance to avoid kevins fate. They were almost right and it couldve gone either way had she truly understood the message.

I also think Lena was less crazy than she appeared as covenants gift of the ranyhyn couldve looked like a gift of affection or love to a susceptible girl..and she had his child, was it that far fetched to think he would return and marry her? clearly disturbed but not without reason if you think about it from her perspective.

[peter]

Wow! The post has taken on a life of it's own so I apologise in advance; I have only read the posts between mine and Shoe's and so much has come out of those alone that I think I must limit my post to these.

Firstly I think it has to be remembered that all that happened - the rape, the gift to Lena (passed to Elena), the Horserite, the attempted 'seduction' etc - was necessary. It was necessary to bring TC to the state of mind he needed to be in, in order to challenge and defeat Foul (if nothing else). Without these things nothing would have been as it was, the people would not have been as they were and would TC have ever reached that place that enabled him to do what he did.

Shoe - the way you present your 'rape' case for the Ranyhn's treatment of Elena is entierly convincing in a modern context. But I have to say this is just not the way I saw it when first I read the story - and nor would I see it this way now. The Ranhyn were beings of faith and honour to the people of the Land. No one would have questioned either the Ranhyn's right to take a child for as long as they chose, or the safety of a child that was in the Rahnyn's care. No - the Ranhyn were not Gods, nor were they infallable. But they were something beyond either of these things in a way that transcended both. They were the living heart of the Land and for a child to be chosen in the way they chose Elena was an honour beyond that which we in our messed up trustless society can comprehend. Like sort of having the Dali-lama turn up on your door with a request for your child, but a hundred times more. Did Elena seem damaged by the whole experience - were her later actions attributable to her experiences with the great horses, I don't know. But I know that TC's gift to Lena (who after all loved the horses with a passion) was an atempt at atonement made with the best of intentions and it would never - never be part of the Ranhyn's plan to put a child through an ordeal that would damage it or indeed be anything other than intended for it's good. TC after all was prepared to sacrifice the entire Land for the life of one child here, and I believe the Ranhyn were of this spirit. If I were an occupant of the Land I would trust them with a child of mine tomorrow, for whatever time they deemed fit, such is my love for the Ranhyn.