Kevin's Watch

Some random thoughts on Xar's thoughts. Not sure how connected they are.

-I'm not sure it makes sense to even hypothesize about a universe that is like ours in all ways except for, say, the speed of light. I doubt any change could be made to c without changing the universe beyond recognition. Nor do I think black holes and super-heavy neutron stars could exist without any stars; if the laws changed so that stars couldn't exist, I assume black holes and neutron stars couldn't either. It's kind of like the question of a planet just like ours that has life just like ours, but with maybe lizards being the intelligent species. But that couldn't be, because if evolution there followed the same path close enough to have all other things the same, it couldn't have changed that one point.

-I've often wondered along similar lines as Xar. Actually, while I don't feel it's conclusive, this type of thing is one of the reasons I don't think there isn't a creator. I think what I'm about to say is a different idea than the above paragraph, so I'm not contradicting myself. (Although I may be wrong, so feel free to argue the point. ) (Oh yeah, and this is obviously from a no-creator pov. heh) It seems possible to me that all the natural laws could have been the same as they are now, but the force of the Big Bang could have been slightly stronger. I mean, we don't know anything about the conditions the instant before the BOOM. Why did things not explode in a perfectly uniform spread? (Not sure how to word that. ) Why did it happen at the exact instant it did, instead of an instant - or an eon - earlier or later? And could it have exploded with .0000000000001% more force? What I mean is, could the exact same ultimate building blocks (whatever they are. Gluons? Strings?) that the BB created have been formed, but moving away from each other .0000000000001% faster? Because if that is possible, then gravity wouldn't have been able to pull any of them together. Not even two of them. And in that case, life certainly couldn't have come about. Individual ultimate building blocks that don't interact in any way couldn't form life. (And if the explosion was that % weaker, it might have all collapsed back to the singularity before life ever came about, and would have happened by now anyway.)

-The ultimate building blocks, and all laws, could be very different from the way they are, and intelligence of some sort could have come about. And that intelligence could be having the same discussion we are now having.

I think I've lost the thread of this thread. .

Oh, BTW, Murrin explained what I was thinking earlier much better...I too was postulating the existence of those infinite universes, rather than their chance of being the only one.

Maybe we could re-state positions though. Xar especially, cause I'm not sure what premise he's arguing from, (although I could guess I think.)

--A

So, if a guy wins the lottery, he should just stay in denial, because it is so damned improbable?

--A

Prebe wrote:So, if a guy wins the lottery, he should just stay in denial, because it is so damned improbable?

Nah. Maybe if he wins it twice.

Avatar wrote:Maybe we could re-state positions though. Xar especially, cause I'm not sure what premise he's arguing from, (although I could guess I think.)

I was mostly trying to fuel the discussion... since it seems everyone was discussing empirical proof (or lack thereof), I would throw in something which is likely to be something one could take as circumstantial evidence, if so inclined

Fair enough...to be honest, I think this thread got a bit confusing well before then though.

--A

I was browsing these threads and one thought came to my mind when I saw this thread: What would muslims respond to this question?

I think it would probably depend on the muslim.

I think Syl is probably right.

--A

There's a distinct possibility that Avatar and Syl are right

I just ask because with what is going on about the cartoon which, by the way, is not about their God but about their prophet, I wonder how they would react to questions about the existence of Him.

well Islam is a peaceful religion, right? never mind all the killing they seem to be involved with.

...and what both you Caamora, and you sgtnull seem to be fishing for is someone saying "Yes. A muslim would get very upset, and burn down an embassy or two". But if that's the "feel good, them against us" blanket response that you are looking for, neither Syl, Avatar or I will give it.

So while many muslims might react in the above way, at least as many muslims would react differently. That's why nobody will ever be able to tell any of you "How a muslim would react".

Prebe said:

...and what both you Caamora, and you sgtnull seem to be fishing for is someone saying "Yes. A muslim would get very upset, and burn down an embassy or two". But if that's the "feel good, them against us" blanket response that you are looking for, neither Syl, Avatar or I will give it.

No, Prebe, that was not what I was 'fishing' for at all.

Sorry caamora. What was it then?

Frankly, I don't know!

The more I thought about it, the more your, Syl's, and sgt's posts were perfect. There is no other answer.

Sometimes I can be such a nerd!

Don't worry about it.

The joy of diversity is obvious, because the answer is the same as it would be for any Christian too, or any other religion for that matter.

--A

In regard to the original post, I believe that it is very possible (and indeed likely) that gods are the creation of humans.

Pretty much agree. And that's not even to say that they are not real...they could well be, (afterall, what we believe to be true is true), but that doesn't mean that they weren't created by humans.

--A