Kevin's Watch

Lord Foul,become one of those crazy,racist,condesending Christians who preach to everyone,and quote the Bible all the time.We don't have enough of those in the south.

Sunbaneglasses wrote:Lord Foul,become one of those crazy,racist,condesending Christians who preach to everyone,and quote the Bible all the time.We don't have enough of those in the south.

I was going to, but my Christian bug has flew the coop. One time I wanted to read Harry Potter, too. They wouldn't accept me for loving Tolkien more, but the Potter book covers were so enticing. Luckily, I didn't give in, in the end.

Avatar wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:Wow, Av, we lost a really great discussion. At least I still have this quote to remind us of its warm glow:

As long as that is held nascent and stillborn and the people operate within a collective without rebellion, then they're essentially another piece--a contribution to its immortality, a cog. A powerful enough collective can make the unnatural appear natural, such that the moment of murder is no longer a crime but a "solution."

You're only quoting that so Plissken can tell you again how brilliant it is.

Heh, perhaps, but in reality it was the only thing left from our discussion that I had saved on my harddrive. If there were a way to resurrect it all, I'd be chomping at the bit!

And you know, I cleared my cache the very day the bastards struck. *sigh*

Must dash, good to see you around a bit despite school. Keep it up.

--A

Well, it is a three-day weekend. Don't expect this often.

Aaah, c'mon, you're a straight-A student damnit...you have to have some relaxation...you deserve it.

(And the Close needs some action. )

--A

Avatar wrote:Aaah, c'mon, you're a straight-A student damnit...you have to have some relaxation...you deserve it.

(And the Close needs some action. )

--A

Yeah, but it's easy for me to get carried away. I mean, I've got at least five reports to do (the hardest part figuring out what order to do them in). I was a 5th year senior, so I know all too well the result of too much gaming and too much Watch surfing.

Do the one that's due earliest first...easy.

Anyway, it's obvious that the sacrifice should be made in terms of gaming.

Regardless, I'm not complaining, the fact that you're here at all, (even after the 3-day weekend ) is good enough for us.

--A

And that brilliant bit was saved.

(And it was brilliant! )

So wow. This thread brings back memories. I was a complex bastard then, and I realize how much I miss good madam Furls and our estimable matrixman. Truly a classic Close topic (even if it got gutted by a pack of hackers).

I digress. I post here to say the spiritual stirrings have arisen; the sweet smoke of praise is directing me yet again into the briny breach. Short version: I may be checking out an Episcopal Church on Sunday.

Second bombshell: I don't feel like an atheist anymore. I pray. I can't explain it. I've reasoned and extrapolated on the socio-theological web that makes me disavow God but pushes me toward religion. In the end I admit I am tired of questioning. I have reasoned enough for 20 men, it feels sometimes. I'm just going to take my hand off the steering wheel. And it's never felt better.

I would pray for you to get better, but...

--A

Wow, this is a cool thread.

Foul, if you're comfortable sharing, how do you pray? Prayer fascinates me, because everyone has slightly different definitions and methods. I don't describe myself as praying, but some people do more or less exactly the same spiritual exercises I do, and refer to it as prayer.

More details!

Avatar wrote:I would pray for you to get better, but...

--A

And it ends with a one-liner. Fair 'nuff. We've discussed every point front and back anyway. I would've hoped for more understanding, but I accept that it's a frustrating conundrum. My favorite history professor was an atheist for 10 years and is now a Christian. And he turned out fine. So there's hope. It's not as if my switch will instantly turn me into a vitriol-spewing fundamentalist.

Cambo wrote:Foul, if you're comfortable sharing, how do you pray?

I usually pray before sleep. I ask forgiveness of my sins and give thanks 'for everything' and ask for His protection. I never ask for anything sprcific, but sometimes I will mention persons who are ill/having it rough. I believe prayers should be self-effacing and honest.

Lord Foul wrote:So wow. This thread brings back memories. I was a complex bastard then, and I realize how much I miss good madam Furls and our estimable matrixman. Truly a classic Close topic (even if it got gutted by a pack of hackers).

I digress. I post here to say the spiritual stirrings have arisen; the sweet smoke of praise is directing me yet again into the briny breach. Short version: I may be checking out an Episcopal Church on Sunday.

Second bombshell: I don't feel like an atheist anymore. I pray. I can't explain it. I've reasoned and extrapolated on the socio-theological web that makes me disavow God but pushes me toward religion. In the end I admit I am tired of questioning. I have reasoned enough for 20 men, it feels sometimes. I'm just going to take my hand off the steering wheel. And it's never felt better.

Hey, LF!
Sounds like a good direction - go for it! I think you'll find that a great many adult Christian converts already HAVE been adult atheists or agnostics, but yeah, I agree with your sentiment.

I'd just say that one should be aiming for truth, not 'religion' as such. We have a deep-seated desire to worship. My own faith - Orthodox Christianity - makes sense out of it - let me tell you that prostrations are very cool - it is, as someone said, how we should be before God - and our prayers are chock-full of self-effacement. You know, one thing that I have a harder time with now is the modern trend of self-aggrandizement - the excessive emphasis on "loving oneself". I'd say the eye of the paradox is that we have to learn to efface ourselves - and let God do the aggrandizing of ourselves for us.

But Episcopal is definitely the right direction, even if I'd give my own recommendations and reasons for going even further. So good luck and God bless!

rusmeister wrote:But Episcopal is definitely the right direction, even if I'd give my own recommendations and reasons for going even further. So good luck and God bless!

Thanks rus. This is the church I'm looking into, and one of my professors had us tour it for its architecture (a beautiful stone church in historic downtown Rome, GA; founded 1844). I saw and attended several Anglican services while in London in 2006 (went to an Ascension Day at King's College Chapel in Cambridge, as well as a service at St. Paul's), and it just resonated with me. I had been raised in Southern Baptist and Church of God, but Anglican felt just as human and a "sweeter smoke", really. Plus the organ and choral services there were mind-bendingly good.

I totally understand your comment about doing it for worship and not just religion itself. I must say it may not come overnight but it's not alien to me either. I'm a very feeling-ful person (a poet among other things) and have never lacked deep appreciation for existence, and I can easily see that transmuted into other avenues.

Anyway. We'll see. The church may look nice but I have to see what the people are like.

rusmeister wrote: I'd say the eye of the paradox is that we have to learn to efface ourselves - and let God do the aggrandizing of ourselves for us.

Ah yes. I think that should apply to anybody, be they creed or creed-less. I wrote something similar in a poem when I was 20. Here goes a few snippets:

And let my love of gain
Learn soon to love loss,
For time and fate dictates both
And neither may I choose
Yea, let my grasping of the now
Accept that all has already changed
And no sure foothold remains
For he that won’t let go.

Very well
Transition upon transition
No thought and birth, death and no thought
Somewhere in between we are found,
Dark and kneeling, hands kneading,
Breaking bread and swearing vows

And this one is like my life statement, infused with the non-action of Taoism and my love of transience:

Let me be as a leaf among leaves, ever yielding
Let me haunt no passage but the breath of wind;
Let me have no will but where the wind wheels
Let me take no being but the one degrading
Let my entire self compose toward returning;
Let me bind with my release

Lord Foul wrote:

rusmeister wrote:But Episcopal is definitely the right direction, even if I'd give my own recommendations and reasons for going even further. So good luck and God bless!

Thanks rus. This is the church I'm looking into, and one of my professors had us tour it for its architecture (a beautiful stone church in historic downtown Rome, GA; founded 1844). I saw and attended several Anglican services while in London in 2006 (went to an Ascension Day at King's College Chapel in Cambridge, as well as a service at St. Paul's), and it just resonated with me. I had been raised in Southern Baptist and Church of God, but Anglican felt just as human and a "sweeter smoke", really. Plus the organ and choral services there were mind-bendingly good.

I totally understand your comment about doing it for worship and not just religion itself. I must say it may not come overnight but it's not alien to me either. I'm a very feeling-ful person (a poet among other things) and have never lacked deep appreciation for existence, and I can easily see that transmuted into other avenues.

Anyway. We'll see. The church may look nice but I have to see what the people are like.

I have a thought on your last comment - what the people are like, according to their own teaching (which I take as general Christian, despite the EC's drifts away from traditional Christian teachings over the past few decades), is that they are all sinners - they are liable to be nasty or rude at times, some may be hypocritical, etc, and this is a predicted behavior as taught by the faith, even though it is behavior that they avowedly want to avoid. So judging a Christian faith (one that professes to teach what Christianity has ALWAYS taught, at any rate - the only kind of faith that could really be true would be one that was continuously and consistently true) by the behavior of its people is non-sequitur, even though we hope we will find a great congregation - in fact, often, we don't.

MY other thought is that once I got settled in to the Orthodox Church, I found its complete lack of musical instruments - the a capello singing/chanting to be superior to western "instrumental" worship, and I don't want to go back. To hear samples of it, go here: ancientfaith.com/ and chose the music stream (they also have a talk stream). (In various languages, although English tends to get maybe 50% air time)

Lord Foul wrote:I would've hoped for more understanding, but I accept that it's a frustrating conundrum.

Hahaha, I don't care what you believe. Whatever gets you through the day man. I doubt it will make any noticeable difference to either you or I.

--A

Very, very interesting, Foul. I hope it brings you all the happiness in the world.

Lord Foul wrote:I love dealing with absolutes, knowing I'll be doing A and B; it's almost like a cleansing ritual. My mindset is very much open to a spartan lifestyle or the cloistered existence of a monk.

Interesting. I don't have any well-formed questions, but... please tell more?

LF wrote:Therein lies the rub, though: were I to become a Christian again, I would only be doing it to gain attachments. I'd be joining the "faith" in order to sate this growing need for security/community and nothing more.

You remember I mentioned some quote where you were like, "ANYONE will become a Christian if they have to in order to avoid isolation" That REALLY brought me up short, made me think, and affected the way _I_ practice my Christian faith for over the last 4 years.

(Because I WANT to help my Christian communities become places where people will be emotionally safe expressing their doubts and dialogueing honestly about these things. It also made me question, "How much of this have I done for reasons of attachment, myself?" a lot.)

What do you imagine yourself doing that would be like professing belief? Aren't there ways to remain quietly in the background, at least as far as claims to faith go?

LF wrote:If I join a church and it gives me the peace I'm searching for, and I in turn give to them something lasting/beneficial from my being there, then it can only be a good. I'd be living a lie, yes; I wouldn't be able to reconcile myself with the fact that I don't believe in God's existence.

BEWARE! Didn't you read my "why I think fake-it-till-you-make-it sometimes works" post?

And "fake it till you make it" aside, something is drawing you to church. Don't worry about what that something is. Just go with it. You'll get out of it what you get out of it. And maybe you will find faith. Is there a God who is making you go for your own reasons, intending that you find faith? Will you never get anything other than community, but find great happiness because of it? The biggest problem might be trying to force something that's not there, or being upset that it isn't. That might spoil any benefit you may get.