The Matrix Reloaded

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Thu May 29, 2003 3:16 pm

And the very next day after I start wondering aout an Animatrix DVD, the adverts start. Animatrix - All nine episodes on DVD in the UK from monday.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu May 29, 2003 10:09 pm

Moving this from the Sequels thread, just so we don't end up with too many Matric threads.

Murrin wrote:I thought Matrix Reloaded was good, but not quite as good as the previous - its not as good when the protagonist is a superhero that wins every fight.

That's the reason I don't buy Superman comics. But when he does meet a worthy opponent, it's spectacular!!!

We can't know if Seraph is Neo's equal. We have no idea how such a thing can be. But he sure put up an incredible fight!!! Neo certainly wasn't winning their brief fight. And anyway, watching Neo in his multiple-foe fights was pretty great!

Personally, I would never argue that Reloaded is the equal of the original. The original gave us the extraordinary conecpt that Reloaded couldn't exist without. Reloaded on its own didn't give us any particularly mind-blowing things to think about. It just expanded on some of the first's ideas.

For example, in the first, we learn that the first matrix was a paradise - and that people didn't accept it. In Reloaded, we learn that choice is the problem with all of the matricies. So then, does "paradise" mean that everything goes your way? No struggle? No having to choose which path to take? In other words, are paradise and choice mutually exclusive?

I'm just saying I don't think the plot was terrible, and the visual aspects - particularly the fights, which is a particular passion of mine - were fantastic. Overall, not the equal of the original, but not a waste by a long shot.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu May 29, 2003 10:35 pm

I got the feeling Serpah was losing to Neo. Neo hit him once, whereas the closest thing to being hit by Seraph was Neo jumping backward to dodge an attack, which he did dodge.

And, call me dense, but I'm more of a special effects and action guy. I get my wonderful source of drama and intelligence and great, lifelike characters from books--movies, well, I couldn't care less what they provide as long as it entertains me! Therefore, I like Reloaded better than The Matrix, even though I agree that the first movie is technically a better movie than its sequel. Still, I'd rather watch Reloaded because the fighting was more exciting. And even though Neo is God and Superman and all, I still was caught up in it all, worried he might get hurt when fighting those guys who had the Keymaker. Plus, he bled once! So, he's not totally Superman!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu May 29, 2003 10:52 pm

In my 3 viewings, I have only seen Seraph stop the fight after taking Neo's measure, which convinced him that it truly is Neo. In the same amount of time, Neo took out three agents in the beginning of the movie. I guess we can't know that Neo wasn't holding back for some reason, but neither do we have reason to think that he didn't believe he was being attacked in earnest.

I'll be seeing it again tomorrow, and I'll look for signs that Seraph was losing. Who landed the most blows might be a good indication. Neither was remotely hurt or slowing down, so we can't tell from that.

Post by **Ryzel** » Fri May 30, 2003 10:39 am

That fight is interesting, but you could take the view that Neo did not want to destroy him because he needed him to get to the oracle.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:16 am

Yeah, the Seraph thing is impossible to know for sure.

Brinn,
What I have in mind is kind of like the difference from completely understanding enlightenment, and being enlightened. Buddha's student, so the story goes, had heard everything Buddha could say on the subject. He intellectually knew everything about it. Then he, and many others, went to see Buddha speak. But Buddha didn't speak, he simply held up a flower. And the studet became enlightened.

I think of the difference between Neo and Trinity (or Neo and anyone else) as the difference between Mozart and the rest of the world. Mozart's mind simply did what it did in this particular area better than anyone else's. It was just the way he was built. It came naturally. When he was 5, he was a better musician than most people will ever be. I understand music pretty well, but my mind doesn't operate as well with it as Mozart's did. Or Einstein's with physics, or Godel's with mathematics. And Neo's mind is naturally advanced in its particular way.

Post by **Ryzel** » Fri May 30, 2003 11:23 am

What if there is no difference between them? What if anyone can use the white gold if they just choose to do it?

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri May 30, 2003 9:38 pm

Well, I saw it again today. The most exciting thing for me this time around was that I glimpsed Seraph in the preview for Revolution!!! Just a brief glimpse, and he was using handguns! But there's the possibility that he'll fight some more!

Re the fight, yeah, only one blow landed - by Neo. Not nearly conclusive. But when Seraph stopped the fight, the look on Neo's face makes me think that he was taking it seriously. It was a confused look that I thought said, "You've been trying to kill me, and now we're done?" It wasn't, "You've been trying to kill me, but it wasn't like like you were a challenge." I don't know. I just thought it was fairly even.

But wasn't it awesome when Neo first looked at him the way only Neo can, and he was shining gold, rather than the green of everything else?

And to go WAAAAAAY off speculating, I think it would be awesome if Seraph was a previous One! Yeah, baby, yeah!! I could see Neo coming back after all this, and deciding that the Oracle is really nice, and incredibly important, and deciding that she needs a first-rate bodyguard.

(And while looking for a transcript for the conversation that Brinn posted, I saw that the actress who played the Oracle died.

I wonder who will play her in Revolutions. She was so good in the role!

)

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Fri May 30, 2003 9:41 pm

They filmed both movies at once, so she's already played the part in Revolutions (which is out in Nov, btw).

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri May 30, 2003 10:00 pm

The website I saw the info on seemed to be saying that she died mid-filming. Maybe she hadn't filmed much of the third film yet. Or maybe the site was wrong. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Sat May 31, 2003 12:05 am

According to Total Film, she died before she filmed her Revolutions bits, but apparently, due to the "cryptic nature of the Oracle" or some such, her physical prescence isn't strictly necessary

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:24 am

Murrin,
I never heard of Animatrix until your posts. To say I'm excited about it would be like saying... Well, something that's a really big understatement! And it comes out June 3!! I can't freakin' wait!!!

I'm particularely intrigued by this, from the synopsis at Suncoast:

meet a new character who will play a pivotal role in the upcoming sequels and understand how he entered the world of The Matrix

I guess that was written before Reloaded, so I wonder which character it is. M'man Seraph?

My profound gratitude.
*BOWS*

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Sat May 31, 2003 10:27 am

Well, I'm lucky to live in the UK, because Five is playing Second Renaissance: Pt 1, Pt2, Program, and Detective Story over this weekend! Pt 1 was yesterday, Pt 2 tonight, and so on... And I can buy the DVD on Monday!

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:55 pm

Just another thing about Neo being better than Seraph: could Seraph have survived the battle with all those Smith clones? Sure, he’s good, but he ain’t no One!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 31, 2003 10:47 pm

I reserved my copy of Animatrix today. Pick it up Tuesday! Can't wait!!

More thoughts on Seraph-
No, I don't think that Neo had pulled out all the stops yet, and I obviously can't know that Seraph could have fought him at that level. I guess I think that Seraph is the greatest fighting program there is. He told Neo that he had to make sure he (Neo) was the One. I think this means that only one of Neo's abilities could have fought Seraph that well. Anybody else, human or program, would have fallen to Seraph by then. I assume Neo would have ultimately won, but I think he was tested more than he had been, more than he could be, by any other single foe since Smith shot him to death and he came back as the One. He clearly would have had no trouble against any single Smith, since, after coming back to life at the end of the first movie, he had no trouble with the one who killed him, and he was knocking them down by the dozens in Reloaded. And the Merovingian's people weren't doing much either. But in all that time, more time than it took him to defeat the three "upgrades" in the beginning of the movie, he only hit Seraph once.

Post by **Earthfriend** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:12 pm

I don't think either Seraph or Neo were fighting to try and 'win'.

Remember what Seraph says once the fight has ended, 'you don't really know someone, until you have fought them', or something like that. Seraph needed to verify that the construct before 'him' was indeed Neo, and the only avenue by which he could gain that info, was through violence, presumeably because of his programming, but more probably because the director(s) wanted to insert a fight scene there

Neo, for his part, knew Seraph was a program the moment he saw 'him' (remember all the funny sparkles around his image when Neo looks at him, seated, drinking his tea...) He would be able to tell that this program was no agent just from the look of 'him', and - as his ultimate goal was to reach the Oracle - Neo was probably stalling for time, not intent on serious offence.

And remember, the Merovigian's flunkies actually made Neo bleed - the only time he took visible damage during the movie (at least, i think that was the only time..?)

I think Seraph is pretty cool, but i don't expect him to last long in Matrix 3. Don't ask me why, just a feeling i get...

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:59 pm

I have a feeling that perhaps the fight with Seraph was something to do with the Oracle - The fact that the fight ends as soon as Neo manages to land a hit suggests to me that perhaps, since he is designed to protect 'that which is most important', he is the greatest fighter in the Matrix, and perhaps the Oracle had told him that he would know the One because the One is the only man who could defeat him...

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:05 pm

Although the fight continued for a bit after the one hit was landed, you're saying pretty much what I am. Nobody else could stand against Seraph, and so Seraph knew it was the One.

Another possibility is what I think Earthfriend is talking about, which is illustrated by this part in Eric Lustbader's The Ninja:

As a master, a sensei, fear in kenjutsu was an unknown thing to him. Until now.

It was not so much the fear of defeat - even he had, once or twice, been defeated - though he knew from the opening moments that this man could quite probably take him. No, it was something more subtle than that. It was the manner in which this man - this Hideoshi - fought. Style was imperative in kenjutsu; one could tell much about an opponent by the way he fought. Not only where he had studied and with whom but, on a wider scope, just what kind of man he was. For style was also philosophy and, yes, religion. What one respected and what one held in contempt.

Terry was concerned now because he saw in the other's martial philosophy a lack of regard for human life.

But, while Seraph might learn what kind of person he was fighting, could he have learned exactly which person it was? Is the One the only person who has a specific philosophy? Possibly. He may have revealed things that no human who has not flown through the sky or stopped bullets in mid-air can feel. Although we must then assume that Seraph understands these revelations. (btw, Lustbader also has one person similarly getting to know another from playing, iirc, Noh, which I gather is a board game of sorts. Seeing the person's style of play reveals them the same way their style of fighting does. They're both contests, after all.))

I'm not sure what Neo learned from looking at Seraph the way only Neo can. The times we got to see what Neo sees - when he looked at Smith, the other two agents, and the surrounding walls after coming back from the dead at the end of the first movie; the woman with the chocolate cake -everything was green. But Seraph was bright gold, very different from the green of everything around him. This has got to mean something. Neo said that he think's Seraph is a program, but I wonder just how different he is. Maybe I'll find out Tuesday when I watch Animatrix!

Post by **[Syl]** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:05 pm

Very good point, F&F. That was exactly the take I took on that fight. By now, neo's style is evolved beyond the root programs he uploaded, so I think how he fought was at least as important as how well he fought. Since Seraph was obviously programmed to fight, I'd guess that that was probably how he was programmed to... converse, for lack of a better word.

Something I've been mulling over...

Spoiler
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

So, obviously, something's different. If this is the case, it kind of puts a wrinkle in my theory of the oracle, and now Neo, knowing (or in my version remembering) the future. How could the Oracle know that Trinity would fall in love with The One (ahh, or in the other 5, maybe the love was unreturned)? Now, nothing's to say for sure that in the other 5 incarnations, Trinity did what she did for love. It could've been over a sense of duty, honor, etc., but it seems unlikely. And without love, why would the other 5 Ones even consider choosing the Trinity door over the other? A choice with a predetermined outcome isn't really a choice, and maybe that's the flaw that will bring the system down. *shrug* Attachment? Would a program, no matter how advanced, ever be able to make the distinction between attachment and love? A lot of humans can't even do that.

Eh, guess I'm just going to have to see it again and puzzle it out, though I think that just by writing it down, I've already figured out a lot of it.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:29 pm

I've seen mention of the Animatrix introducing a character that will be in Reloaded and Revolutions, and I think I may have worked it out. Tonight's episode is not Program, as I first thought, but a new episode - Kid's Story. This one has Neo in it - that's about all I know, but I'm making a guess and saying it could be the story of the kid in Reloaded that Neo 'saved' - the one who wants to join the crew of the ship.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Matrix Reloaded