Fantasy Cliche

Post by **onewyteduck** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:53 pm

Loremaster wrote:90% of fantasy is garbage (as is alot of sci-fi)

I'm inclined to agree with you here on this, but, don't you think this can said of novels in general? Not just sci-fi and fantasy?

Post by **Nav** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:58 pm

onewyteduck wrote:when all the characters are just so devestatingly good-looking!

That's not limited to a fantasy setting. Just look at Cold Mountain and Lost.

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:34 pm

I think we forgot: evil overlords who are insanely powerful and poised to conquer the world (okay, someone did mention armies) except for having one weakness involving a small, mundane object, like a ring or a stone or a spoon or something.

And the prince[ss] who doesn't want to be a prince[ss].

Cuddly, furry, harmless, puny folk who save the world.

The Loki figure. God-like being who messes things up just for laughs, used to explain any narrative direction the author chooses to take.

The guy who always dresses all in black.

The good king's advisor who happens to be a plotting evil wizard operating in secret.

The kingdom that falls into ruin the day the king dies.

Classifying kinds of magic into different, antithetical categories.

Jewelry. Anything involving jewelry.

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:55 pm

"90% of fantasy is garbage."

Or Sturgeon's Law - "Ninety percent of everything is crap."

Post by **onewyteduck** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:58 pm

....and meddling "Sisterhoods"

Post by **gyrehead** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:38 pm

Avatar wrote:Me, I'm pretty indulgent.

--A

I must be as well because I would say of the fantasy I have read this year alone, maybe 10% is what I would call garbage, another 20-30% dismissable and the rest entertaining to downright good. I think I've added at least ten new authors if not more to my must-buy list and probably tiwce as many new series started this year by new and already established authors that were entertaining, engaging, thoughtful at times and just plain fun to read. In my years of reading fantasy, I think this is definitely a "golden age" compared to what was out when I was a young-un.

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:58 pm

Does anyone compare the range of fantasy with the range of TV shows? If you've attuned yourself to the exceptional, then you'll find most of it is junk. But junk is what sells the most, so junk is what is made the most.

The worst part is thinking about all of the very fine, intellectually stimulating, original, creative, intriguing stuff that never gets published because publishers only consider how many will sell, rather than how worthy it is of being published.

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:04 am

You know, there is some absolutely wonderful, well written fantasy out there. I've found some simply wonderful, very original stuff in the last few months.

It makes me feel better about the genre to know that for a hack like Terry Goodkind there is a new author named Elizabeth Kostova and her novel The Historian. Sure, there are those awful Eragon books, but the is also Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norell by Susannah Clarke. And even books with something as cliched as dragons can be a great deal of fun - one of the funnest fantasy books I've read in ages is Naomi Novick's His Majesty's Dragon. And R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy was absolutely brilliant, even though it has some of the cliches people mentioned in this thread.

Post by **Marv** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:07 am

Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell is one of the best, most original fantasy books i've ever read.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:33 am

:::sigh:::

I know, there's no accounting for taste...

But, for all of it's derivative nature, I am enjoying the Inheritance trilogy thus far. And I am really looking forward to the movie. Perhaps if it does well, someone will make a serious attempt at a Dragonflight movie.

Post by **Tulizar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:50 am

I agree with others who've posted--it's not the cliches that are the problem, it's the quality of the work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of elves, royal marriages, secret bloodlines and powerful wizards who disappear when they're needed most, but if any of these element can be tied into a great story with engaging characters, I'll give it a shot. I haven't read many traditional fantasy novels recently because as Cov Jr put it there are too many hacks out there.

Sounds like Errikson and Bakker are worth trying.

Gene Wolfe managed to put such a spin on a few of the cliches that one might call his Wizard Knight series a truly original set of books. Neil Gaiman did a nice job with the Loki/Trickster figure in American Gods and several short stories.

Post by **lucimay** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:56 am

Tulizar wrote:Sounds like Errikson and Bakker are worth trying.

oh do. please do.

Post by **Tulizar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:07 am

Lucimay wrote:
Tulizar wrote:Sounds like Errikson and Bakker are worth trying.
oh do. please do.

Drumming up recruits for the Errikson forum eh?

Post by **matrixman** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:32 am

Tulizar wrote:Neil Gaiman did a nice job with the Loki/Trickster figure in American Gods and several short stories.

American Gods is yet another book I'd really like to read, if only I weren't such a proficient procrastinator.

Post by **Tulizar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:41 am

Matrixman wrote:
Tulizar wrote:Neil Gaiman did a nice job with the Loki/Trickster figure in American Gods and several short stories.
American Gods is yet another book I'd really like to read, if only I weren't such a proficient procrastinator.

Tell me about it. I've a stack of unread books sitting by my bed. One of these days.

If you do get around to American Gods, I think you'll enjoy it.

Post by **Warmark** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:29 am

Marvin The Magnificent wrote:Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell is one of the best, most original fantasy books i've ever read.

Agreed.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:31 pm

Humans.

I haven't read one single fantasy book that didn't have at least one or two of these annoying creatures.

Post by **lucimay** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:38 pm

Tulizar wrote:
Lucimay wrote:
Tulizar wrote:Sounds like Errikson and Bakker are worth trying.
oh do. please do.

Drumming up recruits for the Errikson forum eh?

yes that's it exactly recruit.

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:15 pm

Malik, try Brian Jacques' Redwall series. Not a single human. At least in the three novels I read.

Post by **drew** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:15 pm

Malik23 wrote:Humans.

I haven't read one single fantasy book that didn't have at least one or two of these annoying creatures.

At least humans as the the lowest of the low when it comes to various races..yet always the race who saves the day.

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Fantasy Cliche