From someone who links to Michelle Malkin and says things like "We have a Kool Aid drinker in our midsts (sic)," you're not in much of a position to be lecturing us Americans on the "intricacies of politics," I don't think.
The Official Vice President Thread
-
Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
Said with a smile, yes?
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
I still say that once you elect BO, a year from now you'll be saying "WTF was I thinking !!" 
I must say that I don't quite understand the rhetoric against the so-called 'rich' in the USA. There seems to be an unhealthy populistic wave against Wall Street and the wealthy in the US and that does not bode well for the future.
I also don't understand - nor subscribe to - the belief that 'the best way to build an economy is from the bottom up'
It's a xanadu-like approach that sounds cool but is both too expensive to maintain and too slow to work - it also encourages mediocrity and greater government intervention to impose on a free market. If that sounds like a great idea in your eyes then so be it.
Top-down economics is less welfare orientated and by design more cut-throat - but the bottom line is that it stimulates and drives the economy.
I know that here in NZ I pay the top tax rate and it's a higher rate than lower income earners. I don't mind this. i know that some of the taxes I pay go towards welfare and beneficiaries etc etc and I have no problem with that - other parts of it go towards other government expenditures - I'm cool with that too.
What I would have a SERIOUS problem with would be if the government said that they were going to tax me more so that they could use it to specifically write a cheque for lower wage earners. I'd find a different country to live in under those circumstances - they could happily go and find 39% of my income from some other fool.
Having said that, I fortunately don't live in a country run by fools. We have elections coming up shortly as well and BOTH main political parties support and understand the need for across the board tax cuts
I must say that I don't quite understand the rhetoric against the so-called 'rich' in the USA. There seems to be an unhealthy populistic wave against Wall Street and the wealthy in the US and that does not bode well for the future.
I also don't understand - nor subscribe to - the belief that 'the best way to build an economy is from the bottom up'
It's a xanadu-like approach that sounds cool but is both too expensive to maintain and too slow to work - it also encourages mediocrity and greater government intervention to impose on a free market. If that sounds like a great idea in your eyes then so be it.
Top-down economics is less welfare orientated and by design more cut-throat - but the bottom line is that it stimulates and drives the economy.
I know that here in NZ I pay the top tax rate and it's a higher rate than lower income earners. I don't mind this. i know that some of the taxes I pay go towards welfare and beneficiaries etc etc and I have no problem with that - other parts of it go towards other government expenditures - I'm cool with that too.
What I would have a SERIOUS problem with would be if the government said that they were going to tax me more so that they could use it to specifically write a cheque for lower wage earners. I'd find a different country to live in under those circumstances - they could happily go and find 39% of my income from some other fool.
Having said that, I fortunately don't live in a country run by fools. We have elections coming up shortly as well and BOTH main political parties support and understand the need for across the board tax cuts
Firstly, we've been trying trickle-down economics for about 30 years. In that time, the main changes in our economy are these:Vain wrote:I still say that once you elect BO, a year from now you'll be saying "WTF was I thinking !!"
I must say that I don't quite understand the rhetoric against the so-called 'rich' in the USA. There seems to be an unhealthy populistic wave against Wall Street and the wealthy in the US and that does not bode well for the future.
I also don't understand - nor subscribe to - the belief that 'the best way to build an economy is from the bottom up'
It's a xanadu-like approach that sounds cool but is both too expensive to maintain and too slow to work - it also encourages mediocrity and greater government intervention to impose on a free market. If that sounds like a great idea in your eyes then so be it.
1) We've gone from a manufacturing-based economy to an unsustainable circle-jerk serviced-based economy. Clearly, the wealthy haven't been told that using their tax cuts to expand jobs was the point of those tax cuts. Instead, they sent their money (and manufacturing jobs) off-shore, in the hopes of avoiding taxes altogether.
2) We've gone from a wage-based economy to a credit based economy. For a while, it looked good on paper - what with the main indicators used to measure the economy being how much money (real or not) moved from one place to another in a given space of time. Unfortunately though, we've gone from the largest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor nation in the world.
Second, the idea that putting money in the hands of the people who are likely to spend it (as opposed to either hoarding it or sending it off-shore) isn't Xanadu. It's basic economics. The Middle Class drives the economy. Labor drives the economy. Both times we've ignored these principles, we've created large-scale economic melt-downs.
In what sense? (See above.)Vain wrote:Top-down economics is less welfare orientated and by design more cut-throat - but the bottom line is that it stimulates and drives the economy.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
If I'm not wrong, in the late 70's - early 80's - unemployment in the US was MUCH higher than it is now. Tax rates were MUCH higher as well. During that period of time, the US population has grown by many many millions.
Free-market capitalism isn't without its flaws but it is a self-healing system of economics. Socialistic ploys like wealth redistribution fly in the face of this and I don't need to go into the untold cases where this has failed miserably.
When people really really NEED $1000 a year (under $3 a day) to survive then all they're going to buy are basic commodities - not TV's and cars and everything else that actually drives the global economy. Bread and milk may be many things but they are certainly not key drivers (in any way shape or form) of a global economic system - feel free to disagree with me on that.
One thing I am certainly doing right now is spending money on larger items - it's the only way you're going to stop this economic death spire that's spinning around the globe today. You're not going to achieve that by the fallacy of 'bottom up' economics
As for jobs going overseas - so what? It's a global economy and you either learn to deal in that market or you fail - complaining about it isn't going to achieve much
Free-market capitalism isn't without its flaws but it is a self-healing system of economics. Socialistic ploys like wealth redistribution fly in the face of this and I don't need to go into the untold cases where this has failed miserably.
When people really really NEED $1000 a year (under $3 a day) to survive then all they're going to buy are basic commodities - not TV's and cars and everything else that actually drives the global economy. Bread and milk may be many things but they are certainly not key drivers (in any way shape or form) of a global economic system - feel free to disagree with me on that.
One thing I am certainly doing right now is spending money on larger items - it's the only way you're going to stop this economic death spire that's spinning around the globe today. You're not going to achieve that by the fallacy of 'bottom up' economics
As for jobs going overseas - so what? It's a global economy and you either learn to deal in that market or you fail - complaining about it isn't going to achieve much
We need to define our terms a bit, because I can't tell what you're trying to say -
Is lowering taxes (and giving subsidies, and not investigating tax dodges, and...) for the very wealthy, while driving up debts for future taxpayers to pay off, Wealth Redistribution or not?
Is lowering taxes (and giving subsidies, and not investigating tax dodges, and...) for the very wealthy, while driving up debts for future taxpayers to pay off, Wealth Redistribution or not?
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
The simple answer is, "it depends".
Debt isn't necessarily bad. Taxes aren't necessarily wealth distribution.
Subsidies are both.
Debt isn't necessarily bad. Taxes aren't necessarily wealth distribution.
Subsidies are both.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
SoulBiter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9309
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am
- Has thanked: 84 times
- Been thanked: 13 times
I think many people have done that over the last 6 years or so. But they spent money they hadnt made yet (debt) and the lenders fell all over themselves to give them that debt. But it wasnt sustainable. Thats where we are now. People that are spenders and dont mind debt have enough debt that they dont feel comfortable taking on more with the state of the economy. Some of these industries that are suffering are doing so because they are in a state of flux. The auto industry. Everyone knows there are a new wave of higher milage cars coming in 2009 and 2010. So unless they just cant wait, because their car is wrecked or not repairable, they are just holding on to see what the new cars will bring. I dont expect the auto industry to recover for another year or so.Vain wrote:
One thing I am certainly doing right now is spending money on larger items - it's the only way you're going to stop this economic death spire that's spinning around the globe today. You're not going to achieve that by the fallacy of 'bottom up' economics
But its been bigger than that. People in the US 'have' to drive (for the most part). The fuel that we use more than doubled over a short period of time, using up peoples disposable income. At the same time groceries went up (a commodity that we cant do without). Again eating up peoples disposable income. For a while people spent into debt to maintain the same lifestyle but have now had to cut back.
That being said, gas has plummetted. Thats like the biggest tax break ever!! If gas can stay low long enough, people will find extra money in their pocket and spending on other things will increase. Lower gas prices in the long run, can do more for the economy than any short term 'stimulus'.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch 
Which is why OPEC cut production.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-
wayfriend
- .
- Posts: 20957
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 4 times
Is Palin "going rogue" to save herself?
(Goes towards McCain's talent picking a running mate.)Palin's off-script comments irk McCain aides
(CNN) -- Some aides to Sen. John McCain say they weren't happy that running mate Sarah Palin went off script Sunday and turned attention back to the controversy over her wardrobe.
... Over the weekend, sources told CNN that long-brewing tensions between Palin and key aides to McCain were on the rise.
Several McCain advisers suggested that they have become increasingly frustrated with what one aide described as Palin "going rogue."
... A second McCain source says she appears to be looking out for herself more than the McCain campaign.
"She is a diva. She takes no advice from anyone," this McCain adviser said. "She does not have any relationships of trust with any of us, her family or anyone else.
"Also, she is playing for her own future and sees herself as the next leader of the party. Remember: Divas trust only unto themselves, as they see themselves as the beginning and end of all wisdom." ...
.
-
kevinswatch
- "High" Lord
- Posts: 5584
- Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:46 pm
- Location: In the dark, lonely cave that dwells within my eternal soul of despair. It's next to a Pizza Hut.
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
Maybe I'm not the best at 'splainin myself for you Tankers
Bottom line: Capitalism works and Socialism doesn't.
Anybody that argues for the case of taxing a class of people (the rich) and then using that revenue to redistribute to another class of people (the poor), is basically a socialist (if not a marxist) and no amount of argument in favour of capitalism will make a difference
As for Palin - Best thing since sliced bread.Ever.Period
As an aside, I see there's increasing speculation that the markets are reacting in accordance with a perceived Obama win.....he must really be good for the economy
Maybe it also has something to do with his double-pronged attack to legislate the redistribution of wealth by either the constitutional court or the legislature....whichever works
Bottom line: Capitalism works and Socialism doesn't.
Anybody that argues for the case of taxing a class of people (the rich) and then using that revenue to redistribute to another class of people (the poor), is basically a socialist (if not a marxist) and no amount of argument in favour of capitalism will make a difference
As for Palin - Best thing since sliced bread.Ever.Period
As an aside, I see there's increasing speculation that the markets are reacting in accordance with a perceived Obama win.....he must really be good for the economy
Maybe it also has something to do with his double-pronged attack to legislate the redistribution of wealth by either the constitutional court or the legislature....whichever works
-
SoulBiter
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9309
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am
- Has thanked: 84 times
- Been thanked: 13 times
But capitalism run amok doesnt work either. I agree in principle that capitalism is the better way. However over the last 35ish years Ive been in the workforce, Ive found that capitalism can create class warfare on its own. By continuing to lower wages but increase profits. Ive seen companies over and over again that have stuck it to their employees over those years. Its more... capitalism without any morals that seems to create the conditions that this happens.Vain wrote: Maybe I'm not the best at 'splainin myself for you Tankers
Bottom line: Capitalism works and Socialism doesn't.
Thats not to say that all business owners and corporations are greedy profiteering scumbags. I see where corporations do some really great things that dont fit the mold. Just yesterday I saw where a bank (you know, one of those greedy companies that exist to take money out of your pockets at all costs) in UTAH is paying in full, for ALL not some but ALL highschools in Utah for a curriculum to assist educators in teaching basic financial concepts to high school students. The curriculum will cover the basics of insurance, investing, saving, retirement planning and college planning, along with the difficulties associated with credit and debt.
Damn right! We should not take money from those that have and give it to those that dont. It creates a dangerous dependence that leaves people unable and/or unwilling to improve their own conditions. We have been there before and we had literally generations of people being raised on welfare. Why? Because the welfare was so good that it dis-incentived (is that a word?) people to get out and get a minimum wage job. Welfare paid better than the minumum wage. We dont want to go there again.Vain wrote: Anybody that argues for the case of taxing a class of people (the rich) and then using that revenue to redistribute to another class of people (the poor), is basically a socialist (if not a marxist) and no amount of argument in favour of capitalism will make a difference
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...no. I dont find her to be anything but annoying. I know many of my 'conservative' friends think the same thing as Vain but I dont like her....period.Vain wrote: As for Palin - Best thing since sliced bread.Ever.Period
nah, the markets do this every election year. Its not that they think or dont think Obama will win. Its the uncertainty in an election year.Vain wrote: As an aside, I see there's increasing speculation that the markets are reacting in accordance with a perceived Obama win.....he must really be good for the economy
Maybe it also has something to do with his double-pronged attack to legislate the redistribution of wealth by either the constitutional court or the legislature....whichever works
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
-
Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61791
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
Despite the rhetoric though, it's not socialism. Not even close. It's not even as socialist as FDR's New Deal which was about as close as the US has ever come to it, IIRC.
(Although I'll agree that the bailout was a touch socialist, but it's not real socialism...that's some play on lingering communist fears or something.)
--A
(Although I'll agree that the bailout was a touch socialist, but it's not real socialism...that's some play on lingering communist fears or something.)
--A
-
aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
We could probably arrange to have her sent to your neck of the woods, right after Nov. 4th. After all, I'm not sure Alaskans are going to want her back....Vain wrote:As for Palin - Best thing since sliced bread.Ever.Period
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
First of all, heated leather seats are the best thing since sliced bread. Ask me when it's warmer, and I'd probably argue that the Boston Creme Donut.
Regardless, I don't think she'll be having (m)any commitments in DC after next week.
Regardless, I don't think she'll be having (m)any commitments in DC after next week.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
Lord Mhoram
- Lord
- Posts: 9512
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:07 am
If McCain pulls a win next week, I think she'd probably have a decent chance in 2012 (assuming no major boners while she's VP). I think that a lot is going to depend upon the next 4 years. I think whoever wins next week is going to regret it relatively quickly.
Obama would have the benefit of a Democratic Congress for at least two years, but he's talking about doing things that are totally against the DNC's platform (merit pay for teachers for example). So if Obama is actually able to do the things he's talking about, like getting us out of Iraq and cutting taxes (both of which I doubt), then I think he's got a reasonable shot at going for 8 years. This assumes that the economy doesn't get any worse. Unfortunately for him, he's got a Congress that is going to hang around his neck like an albatross. Given their abysmally low approval ratings and their inability to deliver on anything they promised two years ago, Obama's got an uphill fight.
On the chance that McCain wins, he's going to face an extremely hostile Congress. That could play to his favor, as long as he can clearly show that things are being held up by them. Unfortunately, he's utterly failed at illustrating that difference between himself and Bush.
Palin would have to be a far more dynamic VP than we've seen before. She would have to, within four years, do enough of something to eliminate the questions about her experience.
If McCain's not elected, I don't see how she'll be able to do that as Governor of Alaska. Now, if she were to take Ted Stevens's seat......Maybe.
Obama would have the benefit of a Democratic Congress for at least two years, but he's talking about doing things that are totally against the DNC's platform (merit pay for teachers for example). So if Obama is actually able to do the things he's talking about, like getting us out of Iraq and cutting taxes (both of which I doubt), then I think he's got a reasonable shot at going for 8 years. This assumes that the economy doesn't get any worse. Unfortunately for him, he's got a Congress that is going to hang around his neck like an albatross. Given their abysmally low approval ratings and their inability to deliver on anything they promised two years ago, Obama's got an uphill fight.
On the chance that McCain wins, he's going to face an extremely hostile Congress. That could play to his favor, as long as he can clearly show that things are being held up by them. Unfortunately, he's utterly failed at illustrating that difference between himself and Bush.
Palin would have to be a far more dynamic VP than we've seen before. She would have to, within four years, do enough of something to eliminate the questions about her experience.
If McCain's not elected, I don't see how she'll be able to do that as Governor of Alaska. Now, if she were to take Ted Stevens's seat......Maybe.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________