Kevin's Watch

aTOMiC wrote:Okay. If I'm being truly honest I really belong to THE HOLY ORDER OF LINDEN AVERY DISLIKERS - THOOLAD which kind of sounds like the son of THOOLAH. The point is I don't actually HATE Linden. I just dislike her most of the time. She is a Stephen Donaldson creation after all and being a faithful fan of SRD I can't bring myself to actually hate any of his characters. Well, maybe Nick Succorso. You can't pronounce his name aloud without thinking of the word "suck". But I digress.
I'm not advocating a sub-branch of THOOLAH but it is worth noting that we don't all HATE Linden entirely. But she does spend most the time working on my last good nerve.

Only just realised what TOOLAH means.
1 post I can actually agree with. But to be honest it was getting a hard read so missed out the middle 25 or so pages.
Very annoying yes. Hate is not a nice word, even for a fictional character. That poor woman who, as an 8yr. old girl had to endure the suicide of her demented father while being locked in a room with him. I teared up a bit when listening to that a while ago.
This audio book version has a very whiny voice for Linden unfortunately. Not got far enough to remember Anele yet. Well into OT though.

I don't even hate Rey from the Star Wars sequels. Intense dislike maybe. I hate the directors though. They should be bought before the courts for crimes against pop culture.


________________
"Just be nice."

May THOOLAH live on forever!!!

-jay

kevinswatch wrote:May THOOLAH live on forever!!!

-jay

What brought that on, Jay?

Clear headed thinking?

Theoretical Question:


if you were a proud member of THOOLAH, invented a time machine, bought an expensive pocket watch and expunged the Linden Avery daemon from Donaldson's brain with the power of hypnotism and SCIENCE what would you replace her with? How would the Lindenless 2nd trilogy and possibly 3rd look like under your direction?

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Theoretical Question:


if you were a proud member of THOOLAH, invented a time machine, bought an expensive pocket watch and expunged the Linden Avery daemon from Donaldson's brain with the power of hypnotism and SCIENCE what would you replace her with? How would the Lindenless 2nd trilogy and possibly 3rd look like under your direction?

Linden is necessary for the story.
Doesn't mean you still can't hate her.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Theoretical Question:


if you were a proud member of THOOLAH, invented a time machine, bought an expensive pocket watch and expunged the Linden Avery daemon from Donaldson's brain with the power of hypnotism and SCIENCE what would you replace her with? How would the Lindenless 2nd trilogy and possibly 3rd look like under your direction?

First of all Covenant could play a more prominent role in his own story. There would be no need to sideline him for chapters on end with venom fever to give Linden more agency in the narrative. The second chronicles should have been a story of Thomas Covenant at the height of his powers having earned them through the acts of sacrifice in the first trilogy.
Covenant would assume many of the roles given to Linden and there wouldn't be any need to keep humiliating TC to make Linden seem more important. Much of the story would remain as the fat Linden represents is trimmed away leaving a much more exciting and satisfying story for this Donaldson fan.

No. Linden is not essential in any way. There could be any number of ways to introduce a minor character that could fill the roll of "giant pain in the ass" without interfering with Covenants character development. TC can fall in love with a woman from the Land. TC wouldn't need to be kicked in the balls by the Elohim if Linden was never a thing. My god. Everything about the story would be a hundred times more interesting to me. Sun sage? Hollian can be the damn Sun sage. But most importantly Covenant heals the Land at the end. That's 100% necessary to me.

I didn't like what Donaldson did with Joan and their son in the 3rd trilogy but they make a good plot element that was left unresolved previously. A story where they enter the Land and he must confront them is a good base for a 3rd Chron.

Can a woman from the Landworld replace Linden as his love interest? His previous two attempts, Lena and Elena ended very badly. I think he wants an equal for his partner and he tends to see into the hearts of any native he meets. They hold no mystery to him. He's a Creator in his own right and they are merely creations. Linden was an outsider from his own world. Can any native equal the weight of that?

If the Lady Alif couldn't free Covenant from the Elohim silence then no woman from the Land is enough for him.

Certainly, it could have been done without her at all. As aTOMiC says. Covenant learned much in the 1st. In the 2nd, he was not nearly the helpless person he was in the 1st. It could have been about him, more capable, facing greater, trickier traps and evils.

But fine, SRD wanted to tell a story of another character. Another broken person who learns and grows the way Covenant did in the 1st. The 2nd is brilliant in many ways, including Linden's growth, and what it allowed her to do. Casting out a raver is kind of excellent. Helping create the new SoL, then using it and the ring to get rid of the Sunbane is at least tied for the most incredible thing I've ever read, if not sitting alone at the top. She was a hero like we seldom see.

My problem with the Final, unfortunately, is not limited to her. Yeah, I finally quit entirely when she started cutting. AYFKM?!? After her growth in the 2nd, she's back to her crap in the Final, and then that???
Not for me, thanks.

But Covenant isn't much better, when he finally shows up. Partly because of his difficulty adjusting to his return to being human, but partly just whining again.

And then there's the other problems. Theomach defeating the Guardian of the One Tree being extremely annoying, as well as the existence of the Insequent at all, and the infuriating retcons that necessitated. And I'm told She is a worse, more massive retcon.

So yeah. Although the 2nd could have been great without her, it was great with her, and she was great.

And, although her action was the final straw for me with the Final, she's not nearly the only reason I can't make it through.

First makes a few good points that I agree with.

And because of that I feel a need to mention that Linden is not a completely useless character. I do find it troublesome that Linden is a POV character and while Hile Troy was utilized similarly he, Hile Troy, did not interfere with Covenant being the primary protagonist. Linden frequently did. I would have enjoyed the second chronicles more had Linden and Covenant charted separate paths through the story the way Covenant and Hile Troy went on separate quests in The Illearth War, merging at the end.

Oh well. I find it entertaining to complain like everyone on social media. 😎�

The two stories together are a kind of moral hierarchy: the first one is relatively simple concerned with muscle; the second is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles, and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land.

[INTERVIEW: October 1991]

The Second Chronicles isn't about Thomas Covenant.
The Second Chronicles isn't about Linden Avery.

The Second Chronicles is about the relationship that includes Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery. It's about a couple. It's about two people saving the Land together, taking turns being the sane one.

Just as the third expands into a family saving the Land together.

Yup. That's the story SRD chose to write. And, through the 2nd (IMO), there's never been a better story.

Fist and Faith wrote:Yup. That's the story SRD chose to write. And, through the 2nd (IMO), there's never been a better story.

I agree with you 100% there.
Everything was wrapped up nicely for me at the end of the 2nd.

In the end, the time traveling THOOLAist couldn't come up with better ideas. He pocketed his gold pocket watch, patted the dazed Donaldson on the shoulder and muttered "Forgetaboutit" as he left.

I think Linden is unique character in many ways and I have no problem with her until Third Chronicles. I agree I think it was a misstep for her to take such a major set back in Third Chronicles. She seems like she is doing good in Runes then in Fatal revenant its like what??

But truthfully my difficulty in Third Chronicles was ther was so many things popping in and out of story line - some of it just took me out of the story all together... Ok so there are Insequent, Esmer, time travel, SHE, Elohim all popping around in and out of the story. I understood the reasoning - to ratchet up the stakes - but it was just too many things that jolted at least me out of the story line. But still one of the best fantasy series.

When I think back at the Last Chronicles some things really stuck in my memory as being totally awesome and some not so much.
Wildwood's confrontation with the Viles being one of the awesome ones.

But you're right, I feel like I could skip around all 4 books and not miss much.

I should make a thread about this...

Yes, that confrontation was excellent.

But yes, another thread, perhaps. I will add a couple. But this is 1st & 2nd Chrons forum, after all.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Yup. That's the story SRD chose to write. And, through the 2nd (IMO), there's never been a better story.

I agree with you 100% there.
Everything was wrapped up nicely for me at the end of the 2nd.

Agreed.
No story will ever replace the 1st and 2nd Chronicles in my heart.