Kevin's Watch

Lorin, I can understand how you feel. My father was in the Navy, and we moved all over the place all the time. 3 schools in kindergarten. 3 schools in 3rd grade. 3 schools in 4th grade. Every three years, we were scheduled to move, but even then it was a new house every year. I lived in 30 different houses by the time I was 25. And you lose everything. You learn to not draw attention to yourself. You learn that you will always be yourself against the groups already formed when you drop into a new place. You learn not to attach to anything materially or emotionally. You learn that none of it...friendships, homes, relationships, toys...none of it matters because it will never stay.

None of it matters.

You convince yourself that no one is ever truly interested in you. Or what you have to say. Or what you will do for them. Because someday they will just be gone. And anything that would make them leave anyway, anything you would do or they would do that would wreck a relationship, well that doesn't matter either because they're going to be gone someday anyway.

It got so bad that the one time we didn't move on schedule...the one time we stayed somewhere a year longer...and then we moved...I literally went insane...tried to run away...and went deep into the tank. To this day I am not sure I ever made it back out.

And the sick part is that no one around you understands. My parents still don't get the psychological destruction. And I don't blame them for it, they were doing their best to support their family. And they stopped moving before my sister hit high school. She got a chance to find a place to belong.

I've now been at my job for nearly 13 years. And I wonder the same thing. What will happen when / if I leave? How will I react to having to forge new relationships and lose someplace where I belong? It can be terrifying sometimes.

I alluded to this at one point, but I had to give myself a 15 minute pep talk just to be able to walk into the BBQ at E-Fest and do my level best to introduce myself to everyone. Now, it went awesome, but for a half hour prior I was like "Come on, you can do this" when that situation, not the people or the event, but that situation is typically my worst nightmare.

The only thing that saved me in any way was music. It made me get out with people. It made me learn how to make myself valuable in some fashion. I am more grateful that I can say to have had that in my life.

I guess that's all I can suggest here...find something that you love to do and get it out with other people who like what they do...it's so hard but it might help.

Keep your chin up. You and I both have friends here, and one gets the sense they aren't "going away" any time soon. They might not be physically there, but we're all virtually here, and don't discount that.

lorin: First off --

Second -- I am pretty sure that whatever I say isn't going to help much, but I'll take a stab at it anyhow.

I've been feeling down since I got home from E-fest, too. Part of it is that I'm sick of my job and I don't feel like I have much to contribute there anymore. It's soul-sucking in a different way than your job was, but it's still soul-sucking. DC in general is soul-sucking. And I've been here way longer than I intended to stay.

Another part of it is that I had a great time in NM with a whole bunch of people I care about, and now I'm home and they're not here. And too, I got a chance to hobnob with some writers, which feeds my soul in a way the day job never will. I've learned to build in an extra day or two of vacation after I come back from a writing-related trip; otherwise the transition back to RL sends me into a tailspin.

So anyway, there's that. You had a great time and now you're back home with the dog and all the crap you left behind. That's going to depress anybody.

But I have to take issue with one thing in your post:

You wrote:Don't invest your whole life into one thing, this is what I learned. Because if you lose that one thing, you lose everything. Spread yourself around, invest in people not jobs.

And then you go on to say that you've isolated yourself now and you don't think that's healthy.

There's a Tarot card called The Hermit. Like most divination tools, it can mean a lot of different things. One thing it can mean is to shut yourself away for self-reflection. There's nothing wrong with that; in fact, for introverts, it's a necessity. Being around other people all the time is draining -- you (well, I, anyway ) need alone time for recharging. Even for extraverts, it's not a bad idea to step away from the world and take stock, now and again.

I think that's what you've been doing for the past year, and I don't think there's been anything wrong with it. Don't beat yourself up over it. You went through years and years and years of a draining, soul-sucking experience. You're not going to recover from that in a couple of weeks. It's okay to spend time alone -- even if it takes a year. Or two.

But here's the thing about what you said, about investing in people instead of in your job. What worries me about this is that you still seem to be looking for external validation. Yes, you're absolutely right -- people come into your life in many ways, and they're there for a while, and then they're gone. It's happened to me, too. I changed schools pretty frequently, too, for various reasons. I was often the new kid -- and the kid with old parents (my parents were both in their 40s when I was born, which was an aberration back then) and the curve-breaker, usually, to boot. And I was not the most outgoing of children, either. Basically, I was weird. Even when I made friends, they didn't tend to last.

Then when I was in radio, I was changing jobs and cities every couple of years, and every time I moved, I left people behind.

And, y'know, even when people stay around, you can't always depend on them to be there for you. As you say, they have lives. Sometimes even your closest friends will put themselves first when you're in a jam. And I always shake my head when I hear women talk about how they're worried about being alone, that they need a man or kids or something. Honey, you can be married for 50 years and have six or ten or a dozen kids, and there is *still* no guarantee that any of them will be there for you. You could still slip in the shower and bleed to death while Hubs is out on the golf course. Or he could die first, and the kids could move out of state, and you'd still be alone. There ain't no guarantees. None.

What I learned out of all of that was to not rely on other people. I have to provide my own validation. I have to take care of myself. Nobody else is gonna put *me* first.

In your situation, I think you're making progress. You've started working with glass (thanks again for the necklace, btw ). If you need more interaction with people, I'm thinking you could volunteer someplace where you're *not* the person in charge, but where the skills you developed in all those years of working with the homeless would be appreciated. If working with people would be too much like what you left behind, then maybe you could volunteer at the animal shelter. You like dogs, and I think the recidivism rate is much lower for pets.

Okay, back to The Hermit. The other thing this card can indicate is your need to seek out a guide -- or it could indicate that a guide is coming to you. If you think you're sliding into clinical depression, I think you ought to do what Brinn suggested and talk to a professional about it.

And one more thing:

Echoing Brinn a bit here, but "fake it to make it"was some of the very best advice I ever received. Imagine your life as you'd like it to be and start living like it's already true.

Lorin, Don't underestimate the positive impact you have had and can continue to have on others. This video is from 1988 but is one of the most touching I have ever seen. Its only one minute ...1:38

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nFuJAF5F0

If you aren't familiar, this guy Sir Nicholas Winton, organized the rescue and passage to Britain of about 669 mostly Jewish Czechoslovakian children destined for the Nazi death camps before World War II in an operation known as the Czech Kindertransport.

These were children he helped but never saw again. He never knew what happened to them after arranging the rescue. His wife found a list of all the children in his scrapbook. 669 kids, and their kids, and their kids....... all owe their lives to this guy. He never really thought about it. Imagine if he had given up at any time.

You helping the homeless...... even in little ways. You are a "life changer"!!! You are changing lives for the better. Its a shame we cant all have the kind of award ceremony that Sir Nicholas Winton had, to see all those that owe it all to you. A kind word at the right time. A meal, a bottle of water, a prayer, a shook hand, a hug, a minute to listen, just being treated with respect. Any of these can be what changes the life of another and leads them to a better life.

The response to my post is really overwhelming to me. I don't know how to thank all of you. This is really a difficult time for me and seeing the care and time you put into your responses makes me feel......., well makes me feel. I have felt to dead for the last year, so isolated in myself. I have read every one over and over.

I have returned to therapy. I know I am in a high risk state right now and need support. The trauma of losing my job, house, kids etc has kicked up a lot of my past. As some know (I make no secret of it) that my mother committed suicide about 7-8 years ago. I live with it on a moment by moment, day by day basis. I have a lot of guilt about her death and a lot of fear that I continue her patterns. As the years go by I see more and more of her in me. So I know I have to get back into therapy. I had my first meeting and was told I had to go for a medication review. This is not something I want to do, but I will do it.

I have decided to put the book I am writing aside. It is a large project about my years with the homeless. I think it is not healthy for me to write about this right now as it triggers a lot of feelings. But I have begun to think about returning to my first love, playwriting. I have a project in mind. I will get back to my book, which is at 500 pages right now, when I feel more stable and grounded.

I am not sure what to do about the sense of isolation. I need a new group of 3D friends. I will work on it but friendships don't come easy to me. In the meantime, I am deeply grateful for all your amazing supportive posts. I am also amazed to know so many people go through what I am going through.

SoulBiter, that video did me in. It was the thing that finally brought me out of hiding.

Sounds like your fighting! Keep up the good work!

Glad to hear you're getting help.

A good friend of mine committed suicide last year. I would never have thought it of him and even though we were friends for many years (he was the best man at my wedding, we hunted, fished, played video games, went to comic con and shows like it, and we worked together). Yet, he never shared with me that he was struggling. I spoke with him an hour before he did it, and he never let on to me what was in his head. Sadly, all the things that came out later that were his 'reasons' were only temporary issues that he and I would be laughing about right now had he only gotten much needed help.

All that aside, I am glad to see that you are taking necessary steps. There is no easy button, just a realization that you cant do it all alone. No one...No one, can always make it by themselves. Even those that seem strong and independent have needed someone at some point in their lives.

You ROCK Lorin, you rock because you have the strength to get help when so many don't. Let us all know how you are doing as time progresses.

Good for you, Lorin. I've tried therapy in the last year and sometimes all you need is someone to talk to honestly to get you changing the world around you for the better.

Damn, SoulBiter!! Freakin' Richard Cory to the max! Holy cow. Sorry for what you must be going through.

lorin... You know what I've been thinking all these days since your previous post? You're just another Watcher. Just like all the rest of us. You look exactly the same as the rest of us. You know. Just words on a screen. What I mean is, none of us know what you're going through at any moment. All that happens is, we see that you made a post, and we think, "Oh, lorin made a post. Let's see what she has to say." I'm trying very hard to make a point, but I don't know how. You're just a Watcher. Just one of us. Hanging out for years now; talking this and that; and, btw, making a heck of a good impression on all of us. I've never spoken to anyone about you in this way, but I'm absolutely certain that the vast majority of us know - not think, but know - that you're good, and smart, and nice.

Regarding your mother, and I want to be clear about this...


NO CHILD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PARENT IN ANY WAY!!! AND THEIR PARENT'S SUICIDE IS NOT EVEN ON THE LIST OF ALL THE WAYS THAT ANYONE MIGHT POSSIBLY, THOUGH DEFINITELY INCORRECTLY, THINK THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PARENT. THE PARENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD. THERE ARE NO "BUT"S. NO EXCUSES. NO CAVEATS. PARENT LOVES, NURTURES, AND PROTECTS CHILD. CHILD GROWS UP, AND LOVES, NURTURES, AND PROTECTS THEIR OWN CHILD. END OF STORY.

I'm profoundly sorry that your mother was not capable of that. But that's what happened. Your mother was not capable of that. The failing, the weakness, the illness, was hers. Not yours. It is never the child's fault.

Sending good thoughts your way, lorin.

That was a great video clip, SB. Brought tears to my eyes.

Thank you both. I don't want you to think I am ignoring what you said, Fist, but these words are overwhelming to me right now.

I will tell you, it is hard not to take some responsibility in her action. Even at this young I still blame myself. Intellectually I know it's not my fault, but down in the gutt, where the darkness lives, I still blame me. I think about how isolated she was that she could go into the room and take pills, knowing that outside the door there were people to talk to. I think how alone she must have felt. I guess we all contributed to her isolation, everyone was so exhausted by constantly worrying if this was the 'day' she would finally do it. But I should have known it was coming. She had been doing the suicide thing since I was 9 or 10. No one believed her anymore. Everyone was just tired.

lorin... You know what I've been thinking all these days since your previous post? You're just another Watcher. Just like all the rest of us. You look exactly the same as the rest of us. You know. Just words on a screen. What I mean is, none of us know what you're going through at any moment. All that happens is, we see that you made a post, and we think, "Oh, lorin made a post. Let's see what she has to say." I'm trying very hard to make a point, but I don't know how. You're just a Watcher. Just one of us. Hanging out for years now; talking this and that; and, btw, making a heck of a good impression on all of us. I've never spoken to anyone about you in this way, but I'm absolutely certain that the vast majority of us know - not think, but know - that you're good, and smart, and nice.

I am happy to be "Just one of us". This is my home base and my safety right now. Being called "Just one of us" is the nicest thing you could say to me.

Speaking of 'us' I wish I knew where Cambo was. I miss him and worry about him.

SB, that's awful.

Guys, none of us (unless there's a licensed therapist and/or psychologist in here, and I'm pretty sure there's not) is trained or equipped to deal with someone who is determined to kill him/herself. It's an illness. Brain chemistry. The person might try to manipulate you into believing it's your fault. Or a child might believe it was their fault, in the same way that kids sometimes believe their parents' divorce was their fault. But it's not. It's not anybody's fault. It's like feeling guilty because a loved one developed cancer or, I dunno, Crohn's disease. Their body just went wacky, that's all.

I can't remember if I've shared this here before or not, but here goes. Not long after the ex moved out, he tried to kill himself. Pills chased with Schnapps. Before he did it, he dropped a card in the mail to me, knowing it would get to me after he was gone. He only survived because his brother in Seattle got his last email and called the cops. And then because we were still technically married, I had to be the one to talk him into committing himself for treatment. *That* was not a fun conversation....

Turned out that he'd been suffering from depression for probably the whole of our marriage, and beyond -- and that his mother had suffered from it when he and his siblings were little (which, for me, went a long way toward explaining why the kids turned out the way they have).

Anyway, the point being that I'm somewhat familiar with how this stuff works. But I was healthy enough emotionally myself to recognize that it wasn't my fault that any of it happened -- that his brain chemistry couldn't handle the marriage breaking up.

(The girls got through his suicide attempt okay. They're leery of him now, though, because of another instance of emotional manipulation that happened much later.)

SB and Ali. I am sorry you both when through that. Very sorry. It is harder to be the family/friend that the person and commits or attempts to commit suicide I think.

There is a level of paralysis, and helplessnesss when it happens. I think, no matter how you rationalize it there will always be a part that asks why didn't I see it and what could I have done. Its just a human response.

Ali, it is so hard to know your daughters had to bare witness to it.. It just makes children feel unsure and insecure. And that in turn kicks up the anger. There is an aspect of selfishness to suicide.

My mother made 4 or 5 attempts during my life, several when I was very young. There was no thought as to how it would affect me or my two brothers. I wasn't angry with her until I grew up and out of the house. And then, boy oh boy.......seething. Which is why I had distanced myself from her in the last days which is why I felt guilty for abandoning her. Dominoes. I am sorry to bring it back to me but it is my only frame of reference.

I hope both of you and your daughters, Ali got help working through it. It is hard, I know.

lorin wrote: There is an aspect of selfishness to suicide.

No. Hell no. FUCK no.
And people need to stop saying that...especially people who struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts/tendencies.
Suicide...and depression in general...has a whole host of factors and complications.
But selfishness is NOT one of them.
Hell, truly selfish people almost never commit suicide.
One of the best ways to avoid committing suicide is to be born one selfish motherfucker.
[[though a helluva lot of them kill other people]].

It's important...it can be ESSENTIAL, the difference literally between life and death...not to conflate. Connecting depression/suicide...on the wide/social scale, AND for each individual struggling with it...with selfishness and cowardice almost always has precisely counter effects.

The therapeutic strategy of shifting focus away from the internal to the external is not the same thing as not being selfish.

Practice/technique to "See the world, see the people 'out there'" and
"Don't be selfish, think about others" are grammatically, logically, psychologically and damn BIOLOGICALLY[/b] different.

And, for the record, the second [don't be selfish] is a primary characteristic of the vicious self-thoughts that reinforce depression/suicidal thoughts to BEGIN with.

Don't fall for it.
Telling an alcoholic to stop thinking about whiskey 1) won't stop them thinking about whiskey. [more than likely will do the reverse...like not thinking about pink elephants] 2) Will only punish them [or make them self-punish] every time they DO think about whiskey. [SHIT! I thought about it! Failed again, might as well have a shot!] 3) Won't make them stop being an alcoholic, because 4) It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROBLEM.
[[that may be more distant/detached than what other folk have posted lately. That is for my own well-being...I'm already kinda uncomfortable with...stuff.

But take the sympathy/empathy/well-meaning that others have offered...just don't take to heart or mind the selfish/cowardly/weakness/failure shit.]]

I don't know, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. All I can do is react on a gut level.

I was/am very angry at what my mother tried to do over and over and eventually did. I felt, I feel that she was so self involved that she ignored the needs of her children. That she was unable to put her children ahead of her need to escape.

I will also say that during my darkest times her actions, her selfish narcissistic actions keep me from following in her footsteps. I do not want to do to others, to people that are important to me, what was done to me.

Certainly suicide is selfish. This is most clearly seen when a parent does it. The children are supposed to be the most important thing in a parent's life. Suicide is entirely about the one doing it. Mutually exclusive.

However, suicide is not intentionally selfish. It is the only escape from the pain of existence that the person can find.

Lorin - /hug

I've been avoiding this forum, but this line resonated with me:

lorin wrote: I do not want to do to others, to people that are important to me, what was done to me.

I've been typing out and deleting a reply for the last hour, and most of it is going to stay deleted because even after 20 years it's still not something I'm comfortable talking about.

My mother did not commit suicide. She's still alive. She did use the threat to manipulate me through my entire childhood. It made me the person I am today - responsible, self-destructive, and almost completely incapable of trusting another human being.

There's a part of me that wonders if I would have been better off without her, and I hate myself for thinking that.

I wanted to say something upbeat and inspirational, but the best I can offer is, you're not alone.

Sorus wrote:Lorin - /hug

I've been avoiding this forum, but this line resonated with me:

lorin wrote: I do not want to do to others, to people that are important to me, what was done to me.

I've been typing out and deleting a reply for the last hour, and most of it is going to stay deleted because even after 20 years it's still not something I'm comfortable talking about.

My mother did not commit suicide. She's still alive. She did use the threat to manipulate me through my entire childhood. It made me the person I am today - responsible, self-destructive, and almost completely incapable of trusting another human being.

There's a part of me that wonders if I would have been better off without her, and I hate myself for thinking that.

I wanted to say something upbeat and inspirational, but the best I can offer is, you're not alone.

Sorus, I am sorry, really sorry this may have triggered you. I appreciate that you took the risk to respond. I know it wasn't easy. 'parents' can do so much damage to our worlds. It has a particularly stressful day for me so I don't have the energy to give this a proper response.
I will attack it tomorrow but I didn't want your post to of unanswered.

One of the hardest things to come to terms with in the world is that every other person in it has their own hopes and fears and pains and problems and tragedies and dreams that contribute to making them what they are.

Nothing really constructive to say at this point, but thinking of both you guys.

--A