The Reason Berek and Covenant are one in the same...

[Warmark]

Oh My, Mr. Milquetoast has asked a question that can't be answered, so the attacks begin eh?? Imagine a virual beheading of someone as meek and mild as Milton Milquetoast. Wouldn't it be easier to respond to the question without threats?

Milton

Its not an insult, if you read the thread Xar myself and others have already said why we think Berek is not TC, no point repeating it.

[Mr. Milton Milquetoast]

All that and no answer to the question. How did the people of the land know about white gold??

Milton

[dlbpharmd]

Oh My, Mr. Milquetoast has asked a question that can't be answered, so the attacks begin eh?? Imagine a virual beheading of someone as meek and mild as Milton Milquetoast. Wouldn't it be easier to respond to the question without threats?

Milton

Attacks? Hardly. From my standpoint, it's just that the Covenant=Berek argument is very tiresome. Surely there are better aspects of the Chronicles to discuss?

[Warmark]

We dont know how the Residents of the Land know of White Gold when it is not native to it, dont expect me to give you an answer, we can only sepulate.

It is said that in his last years Kevin ''lusted'' after the WG.

Perhaps The Creator told Berek of its power as he helped him fashion the SOL.

Or if the story of the children of the Creator climbing trough the AoT is true, then the elohim may have seen that WG is the keystone of the Arch. Therefore knowning it power.

[Kil Tyme]

I thought Lord Tom Bombadill put on the WG ring and it didn't effect him, thereby making TC's invisibility a mystery. Opps, wait a sec...

[wayfriend]

If white gold is the keystone to the Arch of Time, empowering it, then anyone who "researched" (for lack of a better word) into the nature of the Arch might be able to deduce the existance of white gold, even though they might not get their hands on any. Sort of like how we deduce the existance of quarks and mesons.

This could explain Kevin's knowledge of it, no?

[Mr. Milton Milquetoast]

While there are several scenarios that might explain the people of the lands knowledge of white gold, Covenant and Berek being one and the same is certainly one of them. With time travel introduced it becomes the more likely option. Reading LFB and the first Chronicles leads me to beleive that all the people of the land, and the giants, everyone recognized the white gold when displayed even though it was not of the land. If it did not occur in the land yet everyone knew about it, it also follows that they had from their lore that the white gold would be worn by a half-unhanded man, like Berek, and Covenant.

Milton

[Fist and Faith]

It is said that in his last years Kevin ''lusted'' after the WG.

Actually, he "yearned for it in vain."

If Covenant becomes Berek, I can't wait to see him go through the extreme training he'll need to become the greatest warrior of the Queen. And I wonder how he'll grow back his fingers, so the King can cut them off in their duel. But I can't understand why, along with many other bits of specific information, he wouldn't tell Damelon to tell Loric to tell Kevin that one of his Lords is Foul.

The sole reason Lena thought Covenant was Berek was because he had "the omen of the hand." Neither Atiaran nor any of the Lords ever suspected he was actually Berek. Dead Kevin probably would have mentioned if he suspected Covenant was his great-grandfather. The Elohim probably would have known, and might have treated Covenant a little better. Since he's the one who possessed the King and fought Berek, there's no way samadhi could not have known, but he never said anything, cryptic or straightforward. Covenant did not give the reader or other characters any indication that he recognized himself when he saw Berek among the dead, or when he saw the depiction of Berek in the arras at Revelstone.

I'm not sure how many reasons there are to think Covenant is not Berek. The only reasons to suspect he is - the halfhand and the fact that Berek knew of white gold - seem pretty circumstantial to me.

[dlbpharmd]

Damn good post, Fist!

[Warmark]

It is said that in his last years Kevin ''lusted'' after the WG.

Actually, he "yearned for it in vain."

Agreed Good post.

[drew]

One quick note on how the People of the Land could recognise White Gold:

They are people of The Land--They can see.

If they can tell what season it is by looking at a blade of grass, as Covenenat was able to do in LFB, then it's perfectly understandable that upon seeing someing wearing a ring made out of the same matieral that binds their own Arch of Time, that they'd recognise it.

The Wraiths came to it...the Ur-viles could smell it...it's not that much of a stretch to think that Stonedowners would see it for something more than a hunk of ore.

[Kil Tyme]

But I can't understand why, along with many other bits of specific information, he wouldn't tell Damelon to tell Loric to tell Kevin that one of his Lords is Foul.

LOL, there are multiple reasons why TC and Berek can't be the same, but maybe that's one of the best ones.

[High Lord Tolkien]

But I can't understand why, along with many other bits of specific information, he wouldn't tell Damelon to tell Loric to tell Kevin that one of his Lords is Foul.

LOL, there are multiple reasons why TC and Berek can't be the same, but maybe that's one of the best ones.

It would break the Arch!

SRD has hinted that Foul is a being outside of time like Esmer and the Elohim.
"outside" in a nonexplainable way , by me anyway.
It seems like thier conciousness can flow back and forth somehow.
And Foul won't break the Arch without the White Gold in his hand.

All the above beings knows that.
TC knows it, as does Linden.
Knowing something but being unable to prevent it falls into the whole "impotent power" theme of tCOTC.

[Fist and Faith]

One quick note on how the People of the Land could recognise White Gold:

They are people of The Land--They can see.

If they can tell what season it is by looking at a blade of grass, as Covenenat was able to do in LFB, then it's perfectly understandable that upon seeing someing wearing a ring made out of the same matieral that binds their own Arch of Time, that they'd recognise it.

The Wraiths came to it...the Ur-viles could smell it...it's not that much of a stretch to think that Stonedowners would see it for something more than a hunk of ore.

However, they didn't see it for more than a hunk of ore. The only humans who knew it to be more had specific knowledge. Atiaran knew it because she had studied at the Loresraat. Kasreyn's own lore had told him about it.

[drew]

Didn't Lena know what it was?

[variol son]

Not at first. Only Atiaran had the knowledge to know what the white gold meant. She says as much herself.

[Kil Tyme]

I'm not so sure. I recall in TIW when TC went with the Lords to Soaring Woodhelven (or Revelwood, created between LFB and TIW, I forget at which place the following happened) TC unceremoniously handed his WG to an old fellow who had held his hand out for an alterior reason. The old man and all around him were in awe of the WG. Therefore, it seems the WG was known to pretty much all the folk of the Land, besides just a select few.

How was it known? Stories and folklore passed down from the ages, obviously, but from where? My guess is that LA's and TC's names and deeds were lost in the past since they were back in time (prob in the Chron 3 storyline, I'll bet), but the wonder and morbid awe of WG was not lost in the story telling since then.

[variol son]

Yes, but that old man was the head of the Loresraat, and those around him were all Lorewardens and students. Atiaran states that she has studied at the Loresraat and that is how she has knowledge of the white gold when even Trell does not.

You also need to remember that The Illearth War takes place fourty years after Covenant first arrives in Mithil Stonedown. In that time, stories about him would have spread throughout the Land: how he fought for the wraiths at the desecration of the Celebration of Spring, how he refused 100 rearing Ranyhyn, how he freed Heathrall Birinair from the Forbidding of blue fire in the catacombs beneath Mount Thunder, and how he aided High Lord Prothall in calling the Fire-Lions. This is alluded to when Heathrall Tohrm tells Covenant that Heathrall Borillar was raised on tails of the Unbeliever. It's probably safe to assume then that knowledge of white gold is far higher among the Land's population during the events of The Illearth War than during the events of Lord Foul's Bane.

[Fist and Faith]

A big KA-CHING to vs. Took the words right outta my mouth.

How was it known? Stories and folklore passed down from the ages, obviously, but from where? My guess is that LA's and TC's names and deeds were lost in the past since they were back in time (prob in the Chron 3 storyline, I'll bet), but the wonder and morbid awe of WG was not lost in the story telling since then.

Now that sounds like a good theory to me! It's certainly possible for Berek to see someone use white gold, but not learn anything about the future. He may never even learn that the user is from the future.

Hey, I'll bet Brinn leaves the One Tree to go back in time, meet Berek, and become the Guardian of the One Tree. That would explain how Berek knew where to find it, and Brinn can give him some information about white gold during the voyage.

TA DA!!!!! Fist and Faith figures out the Final Chrons!!!

Go Fisty!
Go Fisty!
Go Fisty!
It's your birthday!

[Furls Fire]

Hey, I'll bet Brinn leaves the One Tree to go back in time, meet Berek, and become the Guardian of the One Tree. That would explain how Berek knew where to find it, and Brinn can give him some information about white gold during the voyage.

TA DA!!!!! Fist and Faith figures out the Final Chrons!!!

Go Fisty!
Go Fisty!
Go Fisty!
It's your birthday!

*sigh*...oh brother, there will be no living with him now...

And your birthday isn't for another couple of months...