Kevin's Watch

Avatar wrote:

Cail wrote:If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop praying for you.

ROTFLMAO!

Sorry, I know that was serious, but I found it pretty amusing.

Tongue was firmly planted in cheek.

Av, I think you (and everyone else) is misunderstanding me. I emphatically don't believe that the Jews (or Muslims) are wrong in their beliefs. We all believe basically the same thing, other than the details.

Remember, I converted to Catholicism as an adult, I wasn't raised in the Church. Were it not for my (My) deep-seated belief that Christ is the Son of God, then I could have very, very easily converted to Judaism.

But I totally don't get the arrogance argument, especially the implication that by praying for someone I'm making a value judgment that that person's beliefs are lacking. That's like buying someone a sweater for their birthday and having them get pissed off because they think you're insulting their wardrobe.

But whatever. I've said over and over that I don't care what anyone believes because it simply doesn't affect me. If a pagan wants to slaughter a goat for me at midnight, then I appreciate the gesture, but it doesn't harm me one iota.

Oh, I don't think that you think that they're wrong. I just think that it can be seen as arrogant (towards the group ) if somebody is attempting to pray them toward "salvation."

I don't think it hurts anybody, but it does suggest a lack of respect for their own belief. Which is understandable, given that the one belief must cancel out the other, but the Church doesn't have to shout it out at mass, any more than it needs to shout out that gays or people who wear linen or eat shellfish are going to burn in hell.

It's the implicit assumption that only their way is the right way. Again, understandable and explicitly implicit in the whole religion concept, but nonetheless somewhat unfeeling.

--A

In the specific case of the Jews, the Catholic Church acknowledges that they are God's Chosen People, that God created a Covenant with them (the Old Testament), and that they're going to Heaven, whether they accept Christ or not.***

Given the historical context of who Christ was, and what the Jews of the time wanted Him to be, it's no wonder that they didn't accept Him as the Son of God. There's no blame or judgment coming from this Catholic at all.

By praying for conversion of the Jews, we are absolutely not making a value judgment, rather we are wishing to share our joy and salvation (through our relationship with Christ) with them.

***Which gives me a hysterically funny mental image of several million Jews entering into the Kingdom, meeting Christ, slapping their foreheads, and crying, "Oi! Who knew!".

Cail wrote:By praying for conversion of the Jews, we are absolutely not making a value judgment, rather we are wishing to share our joy and salvation (through our relationship with Christ) with them.

But do the Jews see it that way? Or do they see the Catholics going "Oh god, please help these misguided people in their false religion to join us in worshipping you properly"?

Cail wrote:***Which gives me a hysterically funny mental image of several million Jews entering into the Kingdom, meeting Christ, slapping their foreheads, and crying, "Oi! Who knew!".

(Reminds of the brilliant Rowan Atkinson skit: "Christians, the Jews were right..." (Coulda been the Mormons, I misremember.) )

--A

Avatar wrote:

Cail wrote:By praying for conversion of the Jews, we are absolutely not making a value judgment, rather we are wishing to share our joy and salvation (through our relationship with Christ) with them.

But do the Jews see it that way? Or do they see the Catholics going "Oh god, please help these misguided people in their false religion to join us in worshipping you properly"?

That's not within my control nor is it my responsibility (nor is it the Church's). If the Jews choose to take offense to it, that's on them, because that's certainly not the spirit in which the prayer is offered.

But, given that potential perspective, doesn't it explain why they consider it offensive?

--A

And then, secondly, do you carry on doing something that is perceived as offensive, once you realise that it's offensive?

Do you keep offering somebody charity when they've made clear that they're offended by it, even if you offered it out of good will in the first place?

--A

Charity's different, you're actively giving something to someone.

What exactly is the direct effect on someone that I'm praying for? What harm have I done to you over the past few years by including you in my prayers?

Avatar wrote:I don't think it hurts anybody, but it does suggest a lack of respect for their own belief. Which is understandable, given that the one belief must cancel out the other, but the Church doesn't have to shout it out at mass, any more than it needs to shout out that gays or people who wear linen or eat shellfish are going to burn in hell.

Why shouldn't the Church, or any group for that matter, state what its beliefs are? Or state a guide as to how to reach it's goal?

Avatar wrote:It's the implicit assumption that only their way is the right way. Again, understandable and explicitly implicit in the whole religion concept, but nonetheless somewhat unfeeling.

--A

It wouldn't be much of a system of thought or belief if it didn't stand for something.

None. But if I told you I was offended by you praying for me would you carry on doing it?

(And offering isn't actively doing something. (In fact, praying could be considered active too by some people.) )

My point is that if you know that your attempt to help is offending them, shouldn't you stop, considering it's not something you would naturally do?

(In other words, if you're offending somebody just by going through your usual daily activities and stopping would harm you in some way, then it's their problem that they're offensive. But if it's something you're only doing to try and be helpful, and wouldn't ordinarily do, then stopping because it's offensive to them doesn't harm you.

Say you kept on offering people to find them a better domestic worker (Maid) because their house is dirty, so their current one obviously sucks. If that offended them, would you make a point of offering to help them by finding them one every day? Or would you just stop offering?)

--A

Sorry Av, I don't see the comparison. If you told me that my praying for you was offending you, I'd stop telling you about it.

Lord Mhoram wrote:The idea that my faith alone is the way to salvation, and that all others are somehow inherently wrong, and that therefore the adherents of those tainted religions must convert to my faith, is not arrogant in your mind?

No, but the idea that someone else is arrogant b/c I don't like what they believe is arrogant and condescending.

Balon wrote:So when you get one person who feels that not only are they correct (which I have no problem with) who is ALSO sure that you are uncorrect (again, no problem with that) and pray to convert the person to said "correct" religion, I see that last part as arrogant. As if the person not only knew what was best for them, but what was best for the person who "needed to be converted."

Hmm, good point, are you trying to convert me to your way of thinking?


EDIT: and I think that other religions are wrong. I think the Bible teaches Jesus is the only way to heaven, so if the difference is in the details, the details matter. Is that arrogant? Maybe. Do you think its arrogant, or wrong? Well then, you're arrogant too. So, I think this word arrogant is no longer a negative thing, but rather, used as a tool in debate to try to paint someone as negative, and put them on the defensive.

It's like the statement, "there is no absolute truth". Really, is that absolutely true?

Or even better, "you're intolerant." That statement itself is intolerant, which means you are as well, which means, SO WHAT?? Everyone is intolerant!

Cail wrote:If you told me that my praying for you was offending you, I'd stop telling you about it.

...well, if anyone was listening to me before I think I already got my point across, but (jic): It doesn't offend me at all, it's just that my soul is none of your (expanded) damm business, never has been, never will be. Just seems to be presumptuous and a waste of time when you could be working on your own or helping others...

But danlo, what if I believe praying for your soul IS helping you? And years later, when you also believe as I do, you tell me, "you know, all those times I told you to stop praying for me, or stop bothering, I'm glad you didn't, you must really care". Yes, that's my Hallmark movie moment, but, the point still applies.

You're right Danlo, ultimately your soul is none of my business. Just like starving people in Africa are none of my business, and just like the tortured people in China are none of my business.

Doesn't mean I can't (or shouldn't) be concerned about them.

if someone requests you stop praying for them, then you should stop praying for them. merely stopping telling them and continuing to do so is completely arrogant, disrespectful and dishonest.

Esmer wrote: if someone requests you stop praying for them, then you should stop praying for them. merely stopping telling them and continuing to do so is completely arrogant, disrespectful and dishonest.

How is that arrogant and disrespectful? Cyberweez has a good point...

Cyberweez wrote:But danlo, what if I believe praying for your soul IS helping you? And years later, when you also believe as I do, you tell me, "you know, all those times I told you to stop praying for me, or stop bothering, I'm glad you didn't, you must really care". Yes, that's my Hallmark movie moment, but, the point still applies.

Im also with Cail on this.. if the praying isnt having an effect on you.. then why would you care one way or the other, unless deep down you believe that it might.

it's called placing your desire above another's, that your wishes are more important than mine, that somehow you know whats best for me more than I do. It doesn't matter what you think, if I request you don't do something on my behalf then you simply shouldn't do it. It's called Respect.

Esmer wrote:it's called placing your desire above another's, that your wishes are more important than mine, that somehow you know whats best for me more than I do. It doesn't matter what you think, if I request you don't do something on my behalf then you simply shouldn't do it. It's called Respect.

I think its called.. being sensitive about something that, to you, is invisible. However.. what if the one doing the praying is correct in his beliefs (he or she has it right) and really does know whats best? Does your logic still hold true?