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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:13 pm
by Savor Dam
Cord Hurn wrote:From now on, EarthBlood will no longer be a main ingredient in my Bloody Mary mix! :cheers: (Unintended consequences, indeed!) ;)
I suspect the Power granted by this libation will not be that of Command...
:twisted:

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:04 pm
by wayfriend
Fist and Faith wrote:Elena, dumber than a bag or hammers, warned by many, fully aware that those with much greater experience with power and plenty of time to think of a good use for the Power of Command didn't use it, thought resurrection would be a good idea.
I cannot be as hard on Elena as all that. She had a theory, after all.
In [i]The Illearth War[/i] was wrote:"Thomas Covenant, I believe that there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair, strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."
Her theory was based on the premise that unrestrained passion was the key to illimitable power. I think it was a solid theory. Just a misguided execution.
Spoiler
It took Mhoram another 7 years to figure out this same "knowledge of power" that Elena had discovered.

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:14 am
by Fist and Faith
I'll never see her as more than an idiot. Too many - no less than Mhoram, the White Gold Wielder, and the living embodiment of the 7th Ward - warned and begged her. Kevin's soul was fairly holocausted when he decided to enact the Ritual of Desecration, and it's difficult to imagine what word he could utter that could be more powerful than that. He failed the Kobayashi Maru, and she thought he was more powerful as a result.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:25 pm
by Cord Hurn
Fist and Faith wrote:I'll never see her as more than an idiot. Too many - no less than Mhoram, the White Gold Wielder, and the living embodiment of the 7th Ward - warned and begged her. Kevin's soul was fairly holocausted when he decided to enact the Ritual of Desecration, and it's difficult to imagine what word he could utter that could be more powerful than that. He failed the Kobayashi Maru, and she thought he was more powerful as a result.
While I think Elena is a terrific character creation by SRD, a vividly memorable personality, I basically endorse Fist's view of her. She was indeed warned repeatedly, and she foolishly ignored the warnings. Her thinking Kevin could save the Land was crazy. :crazy:

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:18 pm
by wayfriend
... but it's an understandable mistake. She thought she found "the answer". In her excitement, she was so eager to try out her obviously awesome idea that she either forgot, or considered unimportant, those warnings. It's like a person so eager to try out their new sportscar that they leave their wallet home and forget to lock the front door. I wouldn't be the first one to throw a stone in this house - I've made similar (if far less consequential) errors in analogous circumstances.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:46 am
by JIkj fjds j
Elena was filled with too much hatred for Lord Foul. This unfortunately consumed her focus and impaired her vision.
Still, she was an extremely passionate defender of the Land no matter how unhinged she'd become. And with a deep love for truth and beauty at the very center of her core, her actions needed to be respected. She was the High Lord, by choice of the Council.

We might ask ourselves where her Hate actually springs from.
I find it interesting when Covenant challenges her reasons for summoning him to the Land, Elena says:
Dukkha Waynhim gave up new knowledge of Fangthane's power.
What this new knowledge is I do not know.
That's not to say there was always some piece of information held back by the Council - (and SRD for reasons of story and plot).

It's also interesting how Covenant sees the Seventh Ward:
It confronted him like a porous membrane in the foundation of time and space.
(An SRD turn of phrase for memory in the brain perhaps? A memory of the past or in the future?).

I like to think that the Seventh Ward was not actually the Blood of the Earth per se, but really just another test of truth - for those without desire for Power and Command.
Elena had the Staff of Law, there was never any need for anything else.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:51 pm
by dlbpharmd
Cord Hurn wrote:Morin's not drinking the EarthBlood to Command Kevin means that he fails to protect Elena and the Staff of Law, and this also has far-reaching, unforeseen consequences. Kevin must have sensed the potential for EarthBlood to be used for good, even if he didn't avail himself of it, or otherwise he wouldn't have created Amok at all.

How about this idea, wayfriend: the EarthBlood is drank to command the Earth to swallow and crush Fleshharrower's army completely. What could possibly go wrong? The Earth gets massive indigestion from swallowing so much evil that Covenant is compelled to bring it a oversized Tums antacid tablet from beyond the Arch of Time, to be slipped into it via Rivenrock? ;)

(Seriously, wayfriend, it's fun discussing this book with somebody, so thanks for your participation! I've enjoyed my latest re-read of TIW, and the revival of these TIW dissection threads was long overdue! We can agree on that much, can't we?? :mrgreen: )
By that point, Kevin was consumed by the power of the Illearth Stone. While it's not entirely clear just how powerful the Stone is, it does seem to rank high on the list. I'm not certain any command by Morin would have been effective against Kevin at that point.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:53 pm
by dlbpharmd
wayfriend wrote:... but it's an understandable mistake. She thought she found "the answer". In her excitement, she was so eager to try out her obviously awesome idea that she either forgot, or considered unimportant, those warnings. It's like a person so eager to try out their new sportscar that they leave their wallet home and forget to lock the front door. I wouldn't be the first one to throw a stone in this house - I've made similar (if far less consequential) errors in analogous circumstances.
Spoiler
I would remind everyone that in the Last Chronicles, Linden is warned repeatedly by various powerful beings, but she also made her own choices, based on her passions and intuition. It worked out well for her, not so much for Elena.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:10 pm
by Cord Hurn
dlbpharmd wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:Morin's not drinking the EarthBlood to Command Kevin means that he fails to protect Elena and the Staff of Law, and this also has far-reaching, unforeseen consequences. Kevin must have sensed the potential for EarthBlood to be used for good, even if he didn't avail himself of it, or otherwise he wouldn't have created Amok at all.

How about this idea, wayfriend: the EarthBlood is drank to command the Earth to swallow and crush Fleshharrower's army completely. What could possibly go wrong? The Earth gets massive indigestion from swallowing so much evil that Covenant is compelled to bring it a oversized Tums antacid tablet from beyond the Arch of Time, to be slipped into it via Rivenrock? ;)

(Seriously, wayfriend, it's fun discussing this book with somebody, so thanks for your participation! I've enjoyed my latest re-read of TIW, and the revival of these TIW dissection threads was long overdue! We can agree on that much, can't we?? :mrgreen: )
By that point, Kevin was consumed by the power of the Illearth Stone. While it's not entirely clear just how powerful the Stone is, it does seem to rank high on the list. I'm not certain any command by Morin would have been effective against Kevin at that point.

I believe that Amok stated that only the white gold and Lord Foul cannot be Commanded.

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:06 pm
by dlbpharmd
You're quite correct, Amok does state that. Hmmmm. Food for thought.