FR First Impression

[Zarathustra]

TC did not know Vain's purpose in the Second Chronicles. Again, you are engaging in 20/20 hindsight here. And again, too, this is a common feature of fantasy novels, including SRDs: the main quest fails, but some side event proves crucial to the salvation of the world.

But Covenant's Dead did know Vain's purpose. What happened at the One Tree was predictable for them; that's they whole reason they told TC to go there with Vain. That was their plan.

But if Esmer and Mahdoubt could have predicted how a character in the past (Caerroil Wildwood) would behave after a long string of unpredictable events involving half a dozen characters, then they are wiser than Donaldson himself. There was absolutely no way to predict that Linden would receive the Runes from CW after her adventures with Roger. Therefore, there is no sense in which the Runes could have been the goal of this detour.

[wayfriend]

If the runes were the goal of the "detour", who's goal was it? I cannot think of anyone. (Exept the author, of course).

However, the Elohim may have had other motives for letting Linden deal with Roger, other than laziness. It seems reasonable that they might have intended for Linden to learn some things as well.

And Esmer was the one who warned her to drink of the Earthblood first. Again, he may have had a motive for restraining the ur-viles and allowing Roger to execute his time-travel ritual -- one other than hampering Linden. He, too, may have planned for her to learn some things.

[Zarathustra]

And Esmer was the one who warned her to drink of the Earthblood first. Again, he may have had a motive for restraining the ur-viles and allowing Roger to execute his time-travel ritual -- one other than hampering Linden. He, too, may have planned for her to learn some things.

Sure, it's plausible that he wanted her to learn some things. And it's obvious that Mahdoubt found Linden's "growth" a desirable outcome.

However, (broken record time . . . ) the "things" Esmer may have planned for her to learn could only have been Roger's identity and J's plight. He couldn't have planned for Linden to learn the 7 words, because he didn't know the Theomach would intervene. He couldn't have planned for Linden to receive the Runes, because he couldn't have known CW would give them to her. Thus, for the two things he could have planned for her to learn, not only could she learn them in the present, but he could have told her himself. And the betrayal necessary for this help surely would be a smaller thing than risking the end of the earth via Roger having a chance at the PoC. If there's some reason why Linden discovering this herself via the PoC--rather than Esmer telling her--is worth that catastrophic risk, I can't think of it. It would have to be so vitally important, that her discovering it herself is the only way to save the earth. If that's what saves the earth this time around, I'll be very disappointed. How could discovering a temporary illusion, which is now inoperative, save the earth two books later?

[wayfriend]

Maybe he could have told her himself. Or maybe he could not tell her due to his contradictions.

Maybe he could have told her himself but that would have led to the Kastenessen faction seeking another course. Perhaps knowing the enemies plans and following them is better than risking the enemy choosing another.

Or maybe (and this is what I think) what Linden needed to learn was how her strength measured up to Roger's.

I don't know.

[Atrium]

Maybe the only ones capable of inscribing the correct runes on the Staff were the old forestals? They know a lot about law, and a lot about wood. So maybe Esmer and the Mahdoubt deemed it necessary to get Linden back in time to when they were still around. And the easiest way to do that was to let Roger work his plot. Since the Elohim were supposed to stop any threats to the Arch, maybe they deemed it worth the risk.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Therefore, there is no sense in which the Runes could have been the goal of this detour.

There was no way to predict what would happen at the One Tree and Caer Caveral himself stated that the goal of the joruney was to get Findail on board. And I don't think it's Esmer or the Mahdoubt doing the background manipulating here: I think it's the Theomach. And Linden now knows his true name and command him: I see that as a possible key necessity for the next book since who else has had some experience with quelling a restless Worm (Berek got that One Tree limb somehow)? Besides, remember dead Mhoram's words in the 2nd Chronicles? "It boots nothing to avoid his snares..." You sound like you don't want a story here, with possible dangers and disasters along the way.

[Zarathustra]

There was no way to predict what would happen at the One Tree and Caer Caveral himself stated that the goal of the joruney was to get Findail on board.

Trying to cut a limb from the One Tree would set of the "security system" of the falling "stars." And that's what was needed to transform Vain. It's entirely predictable for those who know about the Tree and Vain (i.e. the Dead and the urviles who made Vain). Vain could not have turned into the Staff without this catalyst.

You sound like you don't want a story here, with possible dangers and disasters along the way.

Yeah, that's my problem. I spent $25 dollars on this book because I don't want a story. As long as we're making this personal, you sound like you can't accept that Donaldson is human and can make mistakes.

[Aleksandr]

Look, I am not trying to get personal, but I am very puzzled why you are find these things such a problem. When I point out that SRD used similar plot devices in the earlier books you accuse me of saying that those books suck too-- which is not my point at all. Rather my point is that you are being harder on FR than on the earlier chronicles, and therefore I think your criticisms are unfair. Moreover a couple of your criticisms are valid for fantasy novels in general, from Tolkien down to the hacks. So I have to wonder why you were attracted to this type of reading in the first place.
And no, I don't think SRD is the perfect writer. I have some criticisms of my own and may well start a thread for those. The one thing I will say here is since I do not yet know the story arc in its entirety I am withholding judgment on specific plot elements until I do: that seems only fair. My main criticisms are on character, not plot. The only plot complaint I have so far is that we do not know enough about what's going on to have a real sense of the danger. Very unlike the First Chronicles where we had a specific prophecy, and unlike the Second where the ill of the Sunbane was so vividly realized it overwhlemed the reader (as much as it did Linden) until we finally got outside it.

[Atrium]

Im with Alexandr here. If you liked Donaldsons past stories in the Land, you should have gotten used to the kind of plotweawing we se in the journey to Earthroot by now. Some things which may seem illogical or mysterious in mid-story will be explained later and put into a greater context, and then well all go "aaah". Like ive said earlier, the first part of FR made for very exciting reading, at least for me. And thats more important than being able to explain the actions and unactions of every single character before all plots bear fruit.

Im also more bothered by the general confusion as to where this heroes journey really is going. We´re only 2 books from the conclusion, and by now the protagonists should have a better understanding of what needs to be done. That would benefit us readers enormously.

[callback]

Im also more bothered by the general confusion as to where this heroes journey really is going. We´re only 2 books from the conclusion, and by now the protagonists should have a better understanding of what needs to be done. That would benefit us readers enormously.

You do remember that Covenant didn't figure out what needed to be done until the last half of the last book, last time, right? And even then SRD didn't bother to clue us in....

[Aleksandr]

Re: You do remember that Covenant didn't figure out what needed to be done until the last half of the last book, last time, right? And even then SRD didn't bother to clue us in


It's not so much that the characters don't have the answers. It's that we just don't know what the danger is. Yes, Lord Foul still wants white gold so he can escape the Arch of Time. But what's he up to? In the First Chronicles he had huge armies to attack the Land with., while leaving Convenant free to make all kinds of costly mistakes on his own. In the second Chronicles he had created the Sunbane to ruin the Land, drive Covenant into despair and torment Linden until (he hoped) she would serve him. But what's he doing now? It's almost like he's downsized his operations. Instead of devastating the whole Land and tormenting or corrupting its entire population, he's contenting himself with torturing Joan and Jeremiah. Is he getting lazy in his old age? Meanwhile he's outsourced the Land-ruining franchise to Kastenessen, though we also have very little idea what the mad Elohim is planning or even what he wants as his own ultimate goal. Yes, he's brewed up Kevins Dirt and turned loose some skurj in Gildenbourne. Compared to Foul's grand evil in days gone by that's pretty minor naughtiness. And Kastenessen has these two underlings, Esmer and Roger, to do his bidding, but one is very untrustworthy (as much for Grandpa Elohim as for Linden) and the other is such an utter sociopath he's probably going to screw his master over to if he gets the chance. At the very least he's so nasty that he's incompetent. Then there's the croyel and Jeremiah: whom do they serve? (I say "they" because we have to leave open the possibility that Jeremiah is a willing partner of the croyel). All of this should be a lot more coherent by now even if there are plenty of specific mysteries left. Instead the story is like the nightmarish painting "Guernica" by Picasso where you can tell something is really, really wrong but it's hard to figure out what.

[Atrium]

Well, Covenant figured out already in TWL that he needed a new staff of law, and that the cause for the sunbane and the clave was him destroying the original one.
We we can guess already from the start of TWL, when Linden and Covenant wakes up on Kevinswatch, that the sunbane is going to be the big issue here.

And the first book in the series, LFB, starts with Foul giving Covenant a pretty accurate prophecy of whats going to happen in the first chronicle.

Of course we dont get told the entire plotline in advance, thankfully. But i seem to recall that i had a clearer sense of where the general story was going, both in the first and second chronicles.

[amanibhavam]

Yes but now we seem to be told that the making of the new SoL was perhaps the biggest mistake ever so now even THAT accomplishment is questionable.

[Atrium]

Well, from Rogers point of wiew im sure it was. But i dont believe that for a second. The mistake was losing it, and thats probably my biggest problem so far with the story. I mean, how could Anele just loose the staff? Goddamn it! I would prefer that someone had stolen it from him.

[Anele]

He didn't just lose the staff, he was overwhelmed by the burdens placed on him and felt terribly inadequate to the task appointed him.

He also felt terribly inadequate in comparison to the accomplishment of his parents.
It was a plot device to achieve a goal.

I suppose you could argue that anything beyond the 2nd chronicles is contrived, because essentially it is. The 2nd chronicles could have been and for a long time were the end of the story.

How then do you turn a seemingly completed story to an unfinished one without devices like the staff being missing regardless of how that is achieved?

[Atrium]

Well, that too, but he left the staff behind when he went to investigate a caesure. How smart is that? I understand that Donaldson had to tackle the issue of the staff somehow, like i said, Anele just losing it... I dunno, seems a bit sloppy.

[SoulBiter]

Well, that too, but he left the staff behind when he went to investigate a caesure. How smart is that? I understand that Donaldson had to tackle the issue of the staff somehow, like i said, Anele just losing it... I dunno, seems a bit sloppy.

Technically he didnt lose it. It got moved when he didnt come back to get it. Apparently he is/was pretty powerful even without the staff. He decides to go investigate and leaves the staff in a safe place. he is only going to be gone a minute, and he gets whisked away through time. He goes back to the place where he left it and OMG its not there. He probably didnt even realize until much later that he was in the wrong time.

[alanm]

and to my mind that is another contrived failing with this new set of books... time travel.

Alan

[Cail]

I'm just briefly scanning this topic and ignoring the rest of this forum, as I'm only on page 167. But a few nits and notes....

-Maybe I'm forgetting something from ROTE, but Stave mentions how the na-Mhoram's grim felt when describing being in a fall. Stave has no knowledge of the grim.

-It took me the better part of a month to get through the first 30 or 40 pages.

-So far it is far, far better than ROTE, however I still feel that the entire premise of the Last Chronicles is contrived.

-I still hate time travel and teleportation.

-It's moving along quite well, but SRD's writing is (imo) a far cry from what it was in either the First and Second Chronicles or The Gap.

I really hope that it gets better, but so far I really wish he'd let the story end at the conclusion of WGW.

[Anele]

I've finished reading FR. I liked it quite a bit, though it had an issue or two. The writing was far less annoying than in the past. I didn't feel bewildered, nor did I have to reread several times to make sure I knew exactly what he was trying to say. SRD seems to speak in riddles less than he has in the past.

The story moved along well and there was plenty of new developments. Linden's inner debates are still too prevalent for my taste, but I didn't think they were over the top. SRD still likes to hammer home some points, while remaining vague on others.

The book did seem to stall for me between the time Linden and co left Revelstone and the 2nd battle with skerj. There were some important revelations, but for me there were too many pages dedicated to completing the trip.

Definitely better than ROTE.