Kevin's Watch

rusmeister wrote:

lurch wrote:

wayfriend wrote:... but what some see as a prison, other's see as a bastion.

such is the power of all prisons..

Lurch - this is silly. It's a question of who's right. if you're right, of course it's a prison. If you're wrong, then YOU are the one who is in a prison.

Wait a sec there meister..previously you said that integrity was not beholden by fear,, now you say I'm either right or wrong..Being wrong as you have suggested is without fear??..Your perception of " world view" is parametered by " right/ wrong",,I have slipped the bonds of Right/ Wrong thinking and perceiving. I am not in that box of perception and thinking. I am not a prisoner of that box. I will not call your box of thinking and perceiving " silly" because it is the box of Right/ Wrong that has led mankind to every freekin War in the last 5000 years. Thats not silly, thats terrorizing. Integrity as it is popularized, is the bulkhead of Your Right/ Wrong world view and a major perpetrator in the deaths of millions of human beings. You will not terrorize me.

lurch wrote:

wayfriend wrote:... but what some see as a prison, other's see as a bastion.

such is the power of all prisons..

I do not think that word means what you think it means. The whole point of a prison is that you don't like being there, no?

Integrity doesn't limit your responses to the world. Because you have to choose integrity each and every time. It can be hard, too. So the so-called "prison" can be escaped at any time, purely by the desire to do so.

No, Integrity is a high road. One that is hard to travel by, and one from which one may fall. But one which goes to a good place.

Prebe wrote:

Russ wrote:Got it. But the question is, which of the parents are right? The atheists, or the Christians? Obviously, in either event, the worldview they are busy indoctrinating in their children is opposed (witness the cheering that Malik's poor kid got) and so they cannot share a club that espouses one view or the other.

No apparently not. Not if they want to keep their integrity, as per this thread. I didn't applaud Malik's kids atheism, I applauded that he wouldn't lie to himself or others.

Russ wrote:They could meet only in a place that says, "it doesn't matter what you believe". Since we (serious atheists and serious Christians) happen to think that what you believe is the most important thing, the first thing that determines our worldview and how we approach everything in life, we wouldn't want our kids to be taught that, either.

You misunderstand me. The club shouldn't teach anything even remotely akin to philosophy. That's not what they are for. That's what churches, sunday schools, philosophy courses and *drumroll* parents are for.

Russ wrote:The one club they COULD share would be one that debates who is right - a "Socratic Club" along the lines of the one at Oxford organized by CS Lewis - one that really did play fair to the two sides

No they could share any club that does not discuss "who is right" but one that engages in fun activities for kids!

Russ wrote:Of course, not knowing or having any depth of understanding of the issues such a club for kids would not get very far - so we're back to the parents and their indoctrination/dogma.

Exactly. Let's leave the indoctrination where it belongs.

Russ wrote:In short, they can meet at a pluralistic school that teaches them that what you believe doesn't matter, but that philosophy does not satisfy either of us. We wouldn't want them to meet at a club that taught that, either. If you think THAT would be cool, then I have misunderstood you all along.

I'm afraid you have. You seem to presuppose that teaching needs to be a part of a kids social club. I think that a social club without any kind of teaching is preferable.

As my father said: "Moustache to one side, mucus to the other."

So its OK if I start a faith based club for kids of faith to go to, but as soon as it become popular I have to drop the faith so it can be inclusive to all?

Yeah thats freedom.

Are you on that bandwagon too Soulbiter? How many times do I have to say that I am NOT advocating legislation? I think it's crappy that religion in many instances keeps people apart rather than lead them together. You can deny that all you like, but I think it is pretty obvious that that is what happened to Malik's kid.

Fwiw, I think clubs based on ethnicity are a crappy idea too.

Maliks kid decided.. made a choice.. not to join because he didnt believe in a part of the Scouts oath and law.
Someone just as easily could decide not to join because they dont believe in doing their duty to the USA. That doesnt make it crappy and the scouts didnt seek to deny him a role in the scouts. He did that himself based on his beliefs.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country

I understand that you think its crappy but I think thats one of those things where you just cant make everyone happy. So some people just have to be ticked off about some things.

wayfriend wrote:

lurch wrote:

wayfriend wrote:... but what some see as a prison, other's see as a bastion.

such is the power of all prisons..

I do not think that word means what you think it means. The whole point of a prison is that you don't like being there, no?

Integrity doesn't limit your responses to the world. Because you have to choose integrity each and every time. It can be hard, too. So the so-called "prison" can be escaped at any time, purely by the desire to do so.

No, Integrity is a high road. One that is hard to travel by, and one from which one may fall. But one which goes to a good place.

Wait a minute,,you can't have it both ways..Either you live under the aegis of Integrity or you don't.." purely by the desire to do so"..whats that?..another way of saying,,uuum today i will not have Integrity..??? Way,, you are talkin in circles....Adhering to Integrity DOES limit your response to the world..Ask a Marine.. ask a Priest,,,ask a Judge..I don't believe you Understand the entire word Integrity,, and are choosy as to which part of it you want to ascribe to. Prison???..is it beyond you to fathom the idea that the way you are taught to think and perceive is a " prison"..in that it does not allow for the freedom of other ways to think and perceive..Can you grasp that? If you were born inside Alcatraz and raised all your life there,,then one day given your freedom..how long would it be before you came scurrying back?.. Do you realize that there are Gang Members who see Prison as a must place to go,, inorder to get their Gang Merit Badges,?, Yea!! they WANT to go to Prison..Now Tell Me about what? Tell me about the way one is taught to think and perceive isn't a Prison. Integrity is The Warden. The High Road?? Yea,, the High Road to somebody's Conformity...good luck with that.

Hey you asked..I put in my two cents worth,,and now you're tellin me I'm wrong?.. then why did you ask in the first place.? Alls I'm saying is if you want to be some ones beyotch,,just pledge allegiance to their Code of Conduct and uphold it with all the Integrity you got. You'll do fine.. but you'll never know who you are as long as you do so. Maybe thats not important to you. In my humble opinion,,the subjugation of " Self" for any one else's reality,, is self defeatism and once the self is defeated,,any con artist can take control of you...and maintain control,, by the use of his henchman..Integrity.

Prebe wrote:Are you on that bandwagon too Soulbiter? How many times do I have to say that I am NOT advocating legislation? I think it's crappy that religion in many instances keeps people apart rather than lead them together. You can deny that all you like, but I think it is pretty obvious that that is what happened to Malik's kid.

Fwiw, I think clubs based on ethnicity are a crappy idea too.

I've been mostly feeling VERY weary of trying to communicate anything to people here - the disagreement borders on hostility, and sucks energy from me.

I'll just say on this, Prebe, that it ought to be obvious that whatever would really lead people together would have to be something opposite to modern individualism. It's only logical. As long as I'm celebrating my own uniqueness - the modern cult of praising diversity - I can't really be brought together with others. E pluribus unum means coming together on what makes us the same, not on what makes us different.

All men are ordinary men; the extraordinary men are those who know it.

GK Chesterton

In Orthodoxy, individuality IS important - we all have something unique to contribute. But what brings us together is what we have in common - for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

SoulBiter wrote:Maliks kid decided.. made a choice.. not to join because he didnt believe in a part of the Scouts oath and law.
Someone just as easily could decide not to join because they dont believe in doing their duty to the USA. That doesnt make it crappy and the scouts didnt seek to deny him a role in the scouts. He did that himself based on his beliefs.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country

I understand that you think its crappy but I think thats one of those things where you just cant make everyone happy. So some people just have to be ticked off about some things.

And at his age, his beliefs are merely the indoctrination of his parents - not a result of reason and experience. He trusts his authority (which is a good thing, generally speaking, and something society gradually teaches us not to do, to our detriment - thus, the chaos that results from having no authority that we trust).

Just as an aside, the Girl Scouts also require in their oath that girls "serve God and my country." However, unlike with the Boy Scouts, who require you to mean the Judeo-Christian God, the Girl Scouts are good with you serving whichever God you usually pray to. I've packed away the handbooks or I'd quote it for y'all.

Fun facts to know and tell: Girl Scouts of the USA was founded by Juliette Gordon Low. She met the Baden-Powells in England and decided a group similar to the Boy Scouts would be useful for American girls. The US organization is a sister organization to Girl Scout and Girl Guide programs in other countries around the world.

Soulbiter wrote:I understand that you think its crappy but I think thats one of those things where you just cant make everyone happy. So some people just have to be ticked off about some things.

Thank you!

Russ wrote:I'll just say on this, Prebe, that it ought to be obvious that whatever would really lead people together would have to be something opposite to modern individualism.

I agree completely. But I gather that you are implying that the only possible common denominator is a religious one, which I emphatically disagree with.

Russ wrote:And at his age, his beliefs are merely the indoctrination of his parents

Again, we agree. However, you will notice that this specific kind of indoctrination is an indoctrination that leaves the options open. If you want to call it indoctrination when you are telling you kid that he/she MUST keep an open mind, well then I'm certainly guilty as charged.

Anyway, will anyone seriously object to the conclusion that Malik's kid in this example was de-facto excluded from engaging in social activities of a non religious nature due to religion?

Excellent post Lurch. Perhaps a bit hostile, but hey, I'm not a moderator

P.S. I think that the only reason my posts may have been conceived as hostile (for which I'm sorry) is my use of the word "crappy". Now this may be due to English not being my native language, but in Danish "crappy" is a rather modest expression of disapproval which nobody would really take offense at.

lurch wrote:Wait a minute,,you can't have it both ways..Either you live under the aegis of Integrity or you don't.." purely by the desire to do so"..whats that?..another way of saying,,uuum today i will not have Integrity..??? Way,, you are talkin in circles....

I don't think I'm having it both ways, and I don't think I'm talking in circles.

Acting with integrity is something that you choose, and you have to choose it each and every time you act. You can give it up at any time, or pick and choose when to adhere to it, if you want to. But the virtue comes from making that choice consistently.

It's just like being honest. You have to choose to be honest, each and every time you speak. Nothing is preventing you from being dishonest at any time. It's your own choice. The virtue comes from making the choice to be honest consistently.

In fact, if a person were to be "locked in" by integrety, or by honesty, such that they had no choice but to act with integrity (or honesty), there would not be much virtue in it, and no one would admire it. It'd be about as virtuous as choosing not to fly through the air.

Prebe wrote:Russmeister, I think is IS crappy that two kids who make friends in the same class can't go to the same club whatever after school (without swearing false, i.e. breaking their integrity) because the one kid is an atheist and the other is religious. Apparently you think that's cool.

Don't give me the public service routine. I haven't been talking legislation here; I said I think it's crappy. That's an opinion. You think it isn't crappy, that's yours.

Life is like that sometimes. It's too bad that two friends can't both be on the football team in High School, but possibly one is a great big strapping guy and the other is wheelchair bound. Life is not always fair (in fact it rarely is).

My thing about those who don't care for the creed that the Boy Scouts espouse, form a separate club that conforms to what you want to espouse. There will still be unhappy people out there afterwards though.

RR wrote:Life is like that sometimes. It's too bad that two friends can't both be on the football team in High School, but possibly one is a great big strapping guy and the other is wheelchair bound. Life is not always fair (in fact it rarely is).

[Sarcasm]Now that is an almost exact analogy, and has everything to do with integrity. Spot on![/Sarcasm]

RR wrote:My thing about those who don't care for the creed that the Boy Scouts espouse, form a separate club that conforms to what you want to espouse.

And you have segregation of kids who want to row or whatever. Segregation of people who should be in the same club sharing their common hobby and making friends, but in stead they are in separate clubs doing the same thing. And for the sake of what? *drumroll* That's right: integrity. And to what end I ask?

RR wrote:There will still be unhappy people out there afterwards though.

Sure, but did you look at my last line in the former post? This is an example of religion dividing, and it will continue to do so. I can't understand how someone would think that doesn't stink.

Prebe wrote:

RR wrote:Life is like that sometimes. It's too bad that two friends can't both be on the football team in High School, but possibly one is a great big strapping guy and the other is wheelchair bound. Life is not always fair (in fact it rarely is).

[Sarcasm]Now that is an almost exact analogy, and has everything to do with integrity. Spot on![/Sarcasm]

RR wrote:My thing about those who don't care for the creed that the Boy Scouts espouse, form a separate club that conforms to what you want to espouse.

And you have segregation of kids who want to row or whatever. Segregation of people who should be in the same club sharing their common hobby and making friends, but in stead they are in separate clubs doing the same thing. And for the sake of what? *drumroll* That's right: integrity. And to what end I ask?

RR wrote:There will still be unhappy people out there afterwards though.

Sure, but did you look at my last line in the former post? This is an example of religion dividing, and it will continue to do so. I can't understand how someone would think that doesn't stink.

Hate to tell you, but there will always be divides. The Armed Forces ask that you take a vow to uphold certain standards. Don't like it, don't join the Armed Forces. Join most fraternal organizations, and they ask that you pledge to uphold certain values.

Unfortunately for these two kids, part of the "common" hobby, was a creed that one could not espouse, that is too bad, but it certainly doesn't make the Boy Scouts a terrible organization, nor does it make the boy who could not pledge allegiance or believe in a "God" a bad person either. It's merely an very early introduction to "real life".

Prebe wrote:

Russ wrote:I'll just say on this, Prebe, that it ought to be obvious that whatever would really lead people together would have to be something opposite to modern individualism.

I agree completely. But I gather that you are implying that the only possible common denominator is a religious one, which I emphatically disagree with.

Prebe, whatever your religion or philosophy is, it is the thing from which everything else springs. It is the thing which defines how you see everything and how you choose to live your life. It is the most important thing. It's not a denominator. It is the sum total, of which everything else is only a denominator. You complain about hypocritical people who call themselves Christians, go to church on Sunday and live the rest of the week like the devil - this is because they see their religion as a denominator; as merely a part, a fraction of their lives. They do not understand what the religion means. If your base-line philosophy is hostile to religion as a whole (and not merely a denominator), then we must fight (I referred you to GKC's "The Ball and the Cross", about the essential duel of the atheist and the Christian), and THAT'S why I can't have you teaching my kids, and why you wouldn't want ME teaching YOUR kids. (One caveat - if we both hold the truth to be important - and to be a whole, we would together oppose a world that vigorously denies that and thus, have something in common).

What you seem to suggest is to try to bury the differences; that the differences do not matter (children or no) - I say let's have the differences out in the open and examine them before we decide if we want to send our children to ANY organization, however jolly.

Russ wrote:What you seem to suggest is to try to bury the differences; that the differences do not matter (children or no)

Not quite. I'm arguing that neither the belief in a deity nor the absense of belief should be mixed up where it doesn't belong. Now you seem to be arguing that it belongs everywhere. Even if you try to paint my world view as permeated by atheism, I still say: Moustache to one side, mucus to the other.

Russ wrote:and THAT'S why I can't have you teaching my kids, and why you wouldn't want ME teaching YOUR kids.

I'd love to have you teaching my kids about christian litterature or teaching them at a course concerning eastern orthodoxy. Also, I would also love to have you teaching them math, if you happened to be a good math teacher. See what I'm getting at?

Prebe wrote:

Rusmeister wrote:What you seem to suggest is to try to bury the differences; that the differences do not matter (children or no)

Not quite. I'm arguing that neither the belief in a deity nor the absense of belief should be mixed up where it doesn't belong. Now you seem to be arguing that it belongs everywhere. Even if you try to paint my world view as permeated by atheism, I still say: Moustache to one side, mucus to the other.

Well yes, it DOES belong everywhere. It will come up everywhere your worldview/morality, etc depart from mine.

Prebe wrote:

Rusmeister wrote:and THAT'S why I can't have you teaching my kids, and why you wouldn't want ME teaching YOUR kids.

I'd love to have you teaching my kids about christian litterature or teaching them at a course concerning eastern orthodoxy. Also, I would also love to have you teaching them math, if you happened to be a good math teacher. See what I'm getting at?

Yes, of course.
But what I'm getting at (what you probably wouldn't like) is that I would teach them, to the best of my ability, that there IS truth, the truth matters, and it is both possible and necessary to determine what it is. And where it came up in connection with any given course, what I see that truth to be - and if I DO see it as the Truth, I'm not going to present it as "just my opinion" but as the Truth. Maybe we can find common ground here, though. See what I'm getting at?

Rus wrote:Well yes, it DOES belong everywhere.

If that's what you think, I'm not so sure about you teaching my kids

Rus wrote:Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yes I do. And I think (in the case of Math and litterature) that you would be overstepping the line if you were trying to teach truth.

Personally, I would not do that.

Rus wrote:and it is both possible and necessary to determine what it [truth] is.

You would have done that allready. You wouldn't teach them to determine, because you know the truth.

Prebe wrote:

Rus wrote:and it is both possible and necessary to determine what it [truth] is.

You would have done that allready. You wouldn't teach them to determine, because you know the truth.

Zackly. The best educational approach, IMO, is to give kids -- heck, to give *anybody* -- the skills necessary to figure out the Truth for themselves. "Critical thinking skills," in educationese.

Of course they need to learn facts, too. But facts seem to be a different thing from the Truth you guys are talking about.

Spoon-feeding a kid your Truth sounds a lot like indoctrination to me.

In most walks of life religious or scientific facts don't touch spheres. Only when they do, will I teach (indoctrinate if you will) my kid to believe what he can observe.