Lost Season 5 - Spoilers Inbound

[sgt.null]

so did everyone see the statue? i need a capture - julie missed it.

Look below the front side of the original leg, there's a pic from La Fluer of the back intact

lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Four-toed_statue

lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:FourToedFull.jpg

thank-you. i have posted it as my background so julie can see it.

[Zarathustra]

Well, that was just about the best "HOLY SHIT" moment in Lost. Seriously, I bet 20 million people around the country just said, "Holy shit" at the same exact instant.

So, time paradox? Or is Juliette going to save Ben (with the island's help), thus beginning his infatuation with her, and later Ben knows she saves him, and that's why he doesn't let her leave? This could also start Ben down the road to being a little punk hater. Not that I would blame him. He just had an honest-to-god Iraqi shoot him in the chest.

And Ben surviving a chest shot could be what convinces the Others to let him be their leader.

[sindatur]

Well, that was just about the best "HOLY SHIT" moment in Lost. Seriously, I bet 20 million people around the country just said, "Holy shit" at the same exact instant.

So, time paradox? Or is Juliette going to save Ben (with the island's help), thus beginning his infatuation with her, and later Ben knows she saves him, and that's why he doesn't let her leave? This could also start Ben down the road to being a little punk hater. Not that I would blame him. He just had an honest-to-god Iraqi shoot him in the chest.

And Ben surviving a chest shot could be what convinces the Others to let him be their leader.

I half expected it, knowing the title of the episode was "I Know Why I'm Here" (Or something like that), but, I wasn't sure Sayid had it in him, especially with the reaction he had when Roger slapped Little Ben. Now that we know why Sayid was in cuffs, and his purpose, I'm wondering when we find out how Ben got beat up, and what little thing he had to take care of. I fear

Spoiler

he went to kill Penny, I just hope if that's so, he didn't succeed.

[wayfriend]

Well, that was just about the best "HOLY SHIT" moment in Lost. Seriously, I bet 20 million people around the country just said, "Holy shit" at the same exact instant.

I was one of them.

But before we all freak, we need to see if Faraday was correct. What if Jin wakes up, checks Ben, finds him only mostly dead, brings him back to the compound, gets him fixed up .... leaving Ben with a grudge against svelt Iraqis which, years later in the future, causes him to kill Sayid's wife and send him on a spree of assassinations so as to torture him in an ironic way, all the while knowing that he can't kill Sayid outright because it would change history.

[sindatur]

Well, that was just about the best "HOLY SHIT" moment in Lost. Seriously, I bet 20 million people around the country just said, "Holy shit" at the same exact instant.

I was one of them.

But before we all freak, we need to see if Faraday was correct. What if Jin wakes up, checks Ben, finds him only mostly dead, brings him back to the compound, gets him fixed up .... leaving Ben with a grudge against svelt Iraqis which, years later in the future, causes him to kill Sayid's wife and send him on a spree of assassinations so as to torture him in an ironic way, all the while knowing that he can't kill Sayid outright because it would change history.

Ben...is that you?

Dang, sounds like a Ben plot to me, through and through.

[danlo]

*covers eyes* I can't look-must go finish the 1/2 half! (and I didn't watch the last 4th last week, so was a little freaked to see young Ben in the recap! )

[wayfriend]

Better yet ... the Island may resurrect him. That would explain his being chosen as the leader of the Others/Hostiles.

Locke: You killed me, Ben.
Ben: I know how you feel, John.
Locke: O really? How is that, Ben?
Ben: Well, someone killed me, once.
Locke: And the island ...
Ben: Yes. Don't you want to know who killed me, John? A friend of yours...

[sindatur]

Better yet ... the Island may resurrect him. That would explain his being chosen as the leader of the Others/Hostiles.

Locke: You killed me, Ben.
Ben: I know how you feel, John.
Locke: O really? How is that, Ben?
Ben: Well, someone killed me, once.
Locke: And the island ...
Ben: Yes. Don't you want to know who killed me, John? A friend of yours...

Well, even the island was young and naive once upon a time

[ItisWritten]

Well, that was just about the best "HOLY SHIT" moment in Lost. Seriously, I bet 20 million people around the country just said, "Holy shit" at the same exact instant.

So, time paradox? Or is Juliette going to save Ben (with the island's help), thus beginning his infatuation with her, and later Ben knows she saves him, and that's why he doesn't let her leave? This could also start Ben down the road to being a little punk hater. Not that I would blame him. He just had an honest-to-god Iraqi shoot him in the chest.

And Ben surviving a chest shot could be what convinces the Others to let him be their leader.

I half expected it, knowing the title of the episode was "I Know Why I'm Here" (Or something like that), but, I wasn't sure Sayid had it in him, especially with the reaction he had when Roger slapped Little Ben. Now that we know why Sayid was in cuffs, and his purpose, I'm wondering when we find out how Ben got beat up, and what little thing he had to take care of. I fear

Spoiler

he went to kill Penny, I just hope if that's so, he didn't succeed.

He's Our You was the title, but the other quote was prominent in the previews, so yeah, I was expecting at least an attempt.

So far, the only real paradox the writers have created--and they hedged on that one--was when Faraday talked to Desmond, who took a few years to remember it. Killing Ben would basically rewrite the last 4-1/2 seasons, and with one left I can't imagine how they'd accomplish that. I can see WF's scenario. In fact, I'm fairly certain now why Sawyer, Jin, Hurley, etc were not on "Jacob's lists" back when survivors were being abducted.

I think Ben tried and failed, hence the phone call to Jack to have him fetch Locke's body. After that ... something made Ben almost miss the flight. I'll really be pissed if he succeeded.

[Zarathustra]

So far, the only real paradox the writers have created--and they hedged on that one--was when Faraday talked to Desmond, who took a few years to remember it. Killing Ben would basically rewrite the last 4-1/2 seasons, and with one left I can't imagine how they'd accomplish that.

You don't think it's a paradox for Sayid to kill the person who sent him back into the past? If Ben doesn't survive to turn the wheel, Sayid wouldn't have been able to kill him.

How is it a paradox for Faraday to talk to Desmond?

[sindatur]

So far, the only real paradox the writers have created--and they hedged on that one--was when Faraday talked to Desmond, who took a few years to remember it. Killing Ben would basically rewrite the last 4-1/2 seasons, and with one left I can't imagine how they'd accomplish that.

You don't think it's a paradox for Sayid to kill the person who sent him back into the past? If Ben doesn't survive to turn the wheel, Sayid wouldn't have been able to kill him.

How is it a paradox for Faraday to talk to Desmond?

Malik, reread what you quoted. ItisWritten is saying that would be an insurmountable paradox that would trash continuity beyond recognition (Therefore why I believe Ben can't be allowed by the writers to die)

Desmond is a paradox, because Faraday talked to him on the island in 2004, and Desmond had no memory or that conversation until "bam" one day in 2007 he had this whole new memory, that he didn't have the day before

[Zarathustra]

Hmm . . . I reread it, but I'm still not sure why you directed me to do so. I don't think it's a paradox to remember something you've forgotten for a while. Memory does that to me without time travel.

But with the Ben scenario, "rewriting" seasons 1-4 wouldn't do anything to unravel the paradox of killing someone who made it possible for you to travel back in time.

I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing. Which part of what I said do you think is wrong? Which part of IIW's post did I misunderstand?

[sindatur]

Hmm . . . I reread it, but I'm still not sure why you directed me to do so. I don't think it's a paradox to remember something you've forgotten for a while. Memory does that to me without time travel.

But with the Ben scenario, "rewriting" seasons 1-4 wouldn't do anything to unravel the paradox of killing someone who made it possible for you to travel back in time.

I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing. Which part of what I said do you think it wrong? Which part of IIW's post did I misunderstand?

Sorry, let me try again.

Rewriting S1-4 would need to be done, because it would all be shot to heck and gone if Ben dies, because as you say, Sayid couldn't go back in time to kill Ben, if Ben was dead and unable to cause Sayid to be sent back in time. This is what I believe you misunderstood, but IIW is saying Ben can't die because it would be a paradox, so we all agree on this point, but, you looked as though you believed IIW didn't see a problem with killing Ben

As far as Desmond, it could go either way, but, it seems wrong that he had no memory of it ever, until 3 months later (remember Desmond knew Faraday on the island, so if he was going to remember it, it would've happened then, just like remembering Jack from the stadium stairs when they burst into the Swan station and introducing the Desmond character in S2)

[ItisWritten]

So far, the only real paradox the writers have created--and they hedged on that one--was when Faraday talked to Desmond, who took a few years to remember it. Killing Ben would basically rewrite the last 4-1/2 seasons, and with one left I can't imagine how they'd accomplish that.

You don't think it's a paradox for Sayid to kill the person who sent him back into the past? If Ben doesn't survive to turn the wheel, Sayid wouldn't have been able to kill him.

How is it a paradox for Faraday to talk to Desmond?

Oh, hell yeah killing Ben is a big fat, mind-stripping paradox. Shooting Ben, not so much. It's the irrevocable act that can't be configured into what has already happened. Which is probably why the Island will resurrect Ben--even if it doesn't want to.

As for Faraday/Desmond, that's only a paradox IF Faraday never did before. The way the writers are presenting the time travelers' actions is more time-fulfillment, explaining a host of strange actions by the Others before we knew they would be jumping back 30 years. It's a fine line.

As Sindatur said, Desmond recognized Jack after 3 years, but he didn't recognize Faraday after 1 or 2? Less? When their meeting had to be more bizarre than meeting someone in an empty stadium. It's a paradox, if a very small, acceptable one. It only impacts Desmond.

I'm looking forward to WF's dialogue, with this continuation:

Ben: So you see, John. The island doesn't want me dead.
Locke: No Ben. It couldn't let you die. Now it can.

Of course, Locke surviving Ben shooting him in S3 is explained also. He had to meet Richard (and Widmore) in the past.

[sindatur]

So far, the only real paradox the writers have created--and they hedged on that one--was when Faraday talked to Desmond, who took a few years to remember it. Killing Ben would basically rewrite the last 4-1/2 seasons, and with one left I can't imagine how they'd accomplish that.

You don't think it's a paradox for Sayid to kill the person who sent him back into the past? If Ben doesn't survive to turn the wheel, Sayid wouldn't have been able to kill him.

How is it a paradox for Faraday to talk to Desmond?

Oh, hell yeah killing Ben is a big fat, mind-stripping paradox. Shooting Ben, not so much. It's the irrevocable act that can't be configured into what has already happened. Which is probably why the Island will resurrect Ben--even if it doesn't want to.

As for Faraday/Desmond, that's only a paradox IF Faraday never did before. The way the writers are presenting the time travelers' actions is more time-fulfillment, explaining a host of strange actions by the Others before we knew they would be jumping back 30 years. It's a fine line.

As Sindatur said, Desmond recognized Jack after 3 years, but he didn't recognize Faraday after 1 or 2? Less? When their meeting had to be more bizarre than meeting someone in an empty stadium. It's a paradox, if a very small, acceptable one. It only impacts Desmond.

I'm looking forward to WF's dialogue, with this continuation:

Ben: So you see, John. The island doesn't want me dead.
Locke: No Ben. It couldn't let you die. Now it can.

Of course, Locke surviving Ben shooting him in S3 is explained also. He had to meet Richard (and Widmore) in the past.

As far as the Desmond memory goes though, the show was specific to say how odd it was that Desmond only gained a 3-5 year old memory yesterday, so, they must have an explanation, or they wouldn't have called attention to it, IMHO.

[ItisWritten]

I don't know about an explanation, but the intent--beyond the plot necessities--was to show that paradox is possible. "See? they can change the past."

It makes what the survivors do in the past seem more chaotic, rather than fitting neatly into a past that Ben and Richard have already lived through. It's the same trick of killing off a regular. The writers want us to believe anything can happen.

[wayfriend]

It's the irrevocable act that can't be configured into what has already happened. Which is probably why the Island will resurrect Ben--even if it doesn't want to.

Hey, that get's me thinking.

What if what the island is, is a big fat paradox fixer.

The island resurrects Ben to fix - that is, to avoid - a paradox. Reality can take a miracle, reality can't take a paradox.

Perhaps all the other miracles can be explained by the fact that they, in some way, prevent what would otherwise be a paradox. Locke being unparalyzed ... surely he could not have done all the things he'd done if he stayed paralyzed. No one would have brought everyone back to the island. So the island unparalyzed him to fix the paradox.

Hmmm.....

[sindatur]

It's the irrevocable act that can't be configured into what has already happened. Which is probably why the Island will resurrect Ben--even if it doesn't want to.

Hey, that get's me thinking.

What if what the island is, is a big fat paradox fixer.

The island resurrects Ben to fix - that is, to avoid - a paradox. Reality can take a miracle, reality can't take a paradox.

Perhaps all the other miracles can be explained by the fact that they, in some way, prevent what would otherwise be a paradox. Locke being unparalyzed ... surely he could not have done all the things he'd done if he stayed paralyzed. No one would have brought everyone back to the island. So the island unparalyzed him to fix the paradox.

Hmmm.....

Nice

[ItisWritten]

Reality can take a miracle, reality can't take a paradox.

That's what I call putting the whole shebang in a nutshell.

Miracles, though, are not always clear to those witnessing them. I mean, a chest wound isn't a bullet through the brain. Then again, a bullet in the heart ...

[Worm of Despite]

Losties,

You may find this website enlightening: a lot of literary and deep analysis of the show: www.powells.com/blog/?author=104