Elohim vs. Staff of Law/2nd Chronicles

[peter]

I don't think they were opposed to the creation of a new SOL. I think that was the purpose for which Findail was appointed by the Elohim and that his own opposition was just his attempt to wriggle out of his appointed doom. I think the Elohim knew that he would try this (any of them would have done the same) but also knew that he would fail - Vain was there to make sure things went to plan after all and they knew he would not falter.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think they were opposed to the creation of a new SOL. I think that the purpose for which Findail was appointed by the Elohim and that his own opposition was just his attempt to wriggle out of his appointed doom. I think the Elohim knew that he would try this (any of them would have done the same) but also knew that he would fail - Vain was there to make sure things went to plan after all and they knew he would not falter.

The Elohim were indifferent to the creation of a new SOL, relative to the vast importance attached to it by humans. Only for Findail, and purely for his own self-absorbed and selfish reasons, was its creation of great (negative) importance. But for the Elohim, if its creation leads to the elimination and punishment of Findail, so much the better. A SOL, at the least, would be nothing more than a toy to them, and at the most, only a device to serve one of their selfish ends.

[peter]

A SOL, at the least, would be nothing more than a toy to them, and at the most, only a device to serve one of their selfish ends.

Had they then, no fear of Foul and his desighns to destroy the Land, the Earth and ultimatly the arch of time? Also, I don't quite understand why they would have wanted Findail to suffer.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

A SOL, at the least, would be nothing more than a toy to them, and at the most, only a device to serve one of their selfish ends.

Had they then, no fear of Foul and his desighns to destroy the Land, the Earth and ultimatly the arch of time? Also, I don't quite understand why they would have wanted Findail to suffer.

I don't remember why they appointed Findail to do the suffering and not another Elohim. But the Elohim were thoroughly manipulated into appointing someone to prevent Vain's purpose. I don't think they knew what that purpose was, although they would have assumed it to be evil simply because Vain was an ur-Vile. Thus when the SOL was finally created by Linden the surviving ur-Viles are described as "barking with vindication." In other words, they were vindicated in their goal versus whatever evil outcome the Elohim wrongly predicted.

The reason I say the Elohim were manipulated is because, if they knew Vain's true purpose, the LAST thing they should have done was to send an Elohim along on the quest.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

A SOL, at the least, would be nothing more than a toy to them, and at the most, only a device to serve one of their selfish ends.

Had they then, no fear of Foul and his desighns to destroy the Land, the Earth and ultimatly the arch of time? Also, I don't quite understand why they would have wanted Findail to suffer.

In other words, they were vindicated in their goal versus whatever evil outcome the Elohim wrongly predicted.

In retrospect that seems a bit vague. I'm saying that the creation of a new SOL would be considered by the humans a good thing versus whatever evil outcome the Elohim predicted which they would think has something to do with serving Despite - not Earthpower.

The Elohim, it seems to me, have faulty judgment as a whole. They are overly self-absorbed regarding their personal continuity, completely selfish and narcissistic (SRD characters are often narcissistic). But this is their nature, and the ur-Viles used the very predictable decisions of the Elohim against them. A being that has only one goal - such as maintaining its own existence against all else - is bound to be very predictable.

[peter]

You are loosing me a bit here, WOTWE. Are you saying that Findail was not an essential part of the new staff of law, ie that it could have been formed by Vain alone - indeed this was what the urviles who created him intended and Findails incorporation into the final product was the Elohims input if Findail was not able to distract Vain from his purpose. Ihad always assumed that Findail was absolutely integral to the formation of a new SOL - that it would not have been possible without him. If this is not the case we enter the terratory as to what a staff of law without Findails presence in it would have been like. (It occurs to me that the Elohim MUST have known of Vains purpose if they apointed Findail to the Doom of 'Distract Vain from his purpose or share with him in his fate.')

[thewormoftheworld'send]

You are loosing me a bit here, WOTWE. Are you saying that Findail was not an essential part of the new staff of law, ie that it could have been formed by Vain alone - indeed this was what the urviles who created him intended and Findails incorporation into the final product was the Elohims input if Findail was not able to distract Vain from his purpose. Ihad always assumed that Findail was absolutely integral to the formation of a new SOL - that it would not have been possible without him. If this is not the case we enter the terratory as to what a staff of law without Findails presence in it would have been like. (It occurs to me that the Elohim MUST have known of Vains purpose if they apointed Findail to the Doom of 'Distract Vain from his purpose or share with him in his fate.')

Findail was Appointed to secure the white gold for the Elohim. I searched but couldn't find the source of your quote about sharing with him his fate. I don't see how it could be possible even for an Elohim to distract Vain from his purpose. The creation of a new SOL was a useful way of punishing Findail for his failure, but it served no other purpose for the Elohim. That would be the "selfish end" I referred to in a post above. It was only in Findail's best interest to prevent the creation of a new SOL. In that case the Elohim would have known Vain's purpose all along, but were indifferent to it as anything more than a way to punish Findail for his failure to secure the white gold.

[peter]

Sory WOTWE, I put what I was trying to get across in 'quotes' not to indicate it as a direct quote, but to frame the idea I was trying to express. My mistake.
I am going to be totally honest and admit that it is so long since I read TOT that the details of what we are discucssing are a little hazy to me. Are we specifically told that Findails purpose is to retrieve the white gold for the Elohim - I in my (quite possibly erroneous) memory had it that he was appointed for the fate that eventually befell him. We are certainly agreed that Findail would never have been able to turn Vain from his purpose, but again I have it in my mind that he made a few direct references to this purpouse in the text (though we are not told what that purpose is) and this would indicate that he must have known what that purpose was - and if he knew then so did the rest of the Elohim by default.
And again I am led back to the question of the intent of the urviles who created Vain. If Findails appointment was not to become part of the newly formed staff, then why did Vain make sure that he did so by clasping his ankle (I think) as he fell. Was this or was this not part of the plan of Vains creators. If so, were the Elhoim not party to it; if not why did it happen, and in what way did it change the newly formed SOL from that which was Vains creators intent?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Sory WOTWE, I put what I was trying to get across in 'quotes' not to indicate it as a direct quote, but to frame the idea I was trying to express. My mistake.
I am going to be totally honest and admit that it is so long since I read TOT that the details of what we are discucssing are a little hazy to me. Are we specifically told that Findails purpose is to retrieve the white gold for the Elohim - I in my (quite possibly erroneous) memory had it that he was appointed for the fate that eventually befell him. We are certainly agreed that Findail would never have been able to turn Vain from his purpose, but again I have it in my mind that he made a few direct references to this purpouse in the text (though we are not told what that purpose is) and this would indicate that he must have known what that purpose was - and if he knew then so did the rest of the Elohim by default.
And again I am led back to the question of the intent of the urviles who created Vain. If Findails appointment was not to become part of the newly formed staff, then why did Vain make sure that he did so by clasping his ankle (I think) as he fell. Was this or was this not part of the plan of Vains creators. If so, were the Elhoim not party to it; if not why did it happen, and in what way did it change the newly formed SOL from that which was Vains creators intent?

My memory of this seems to be a little better than yours, because Vain did not clasp Findail's ankle.

The Elohim never revealed Vain's purpose, the reader always has to assume that they know what it is. But Findail was supposed to acquire the white gold in order to redeem himself in their eyes, or be punished for failing. What I don't recall is - why Findail? What did he do wrong? As I recall, he was a friend of Kastenessan.

[peter]

[quote="TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd"]My memory of this seems to be a little better than yours, because Vain did not clasp Findail's ankle.[quote]
Yes - maybe that was when they fell into a chasm and not at the point of formation of the new staff - as I say , I don't remember all the details clearly. Of course the Elohim never revealed Vains purpose to the reader - that much I do remember, puzzling as to what that purpose could be (actually not true because I knew from the moment he put on the heels of the staff in TWL what he would turn out to be, but I know it was never confirmed till the end - and I didn't see the Findail component), but as you said in an earlier post that you didn't think they (the Elohim) knew what that purpose was, and I don't recall that Findail was appointed to secure TC's ring (though I fully concede he may have been), I was wondering what you thought he was doing there at all. Also, I do not believe the Elohim were indifferent to what Foul was doing in the Land - I believe thie appointment of Findail to be a demonstration of thier concern which, while perhaps not explicitly stated, is implicit in this action alone. As to 'why Findail', I think his appointment was not punishment per se for previous sins- but was more in the line of the man in the lifeboat who draws the short straw that says he must be dinner for his shipmates.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

My memory of this seems to be a little better than yours, because Vain did not clasp Findail's ankle.

Yes - maybe that was when they fell into a chasm and not at the point of formation of the new staff - as I say , I don't remember all the details clearly. Of course the Elohim never revealed Vains purpose to the reader - that much I do remember, puzzling as to what that purpose could be (actually not true because I knew from the moment he put on the heels of the staff in TWL what he would turn out to be, but I know it was never confirmed till the end - and I didn't see the Findail component), but as you said in an earlier post that you didn't think they (the Elohim) knew what that purpose was, and I don't recall that Findail was appointed to secure TC's ring (though I fully concede he may have been), I was wondering what you thought he was doing there at all. Also, I do not believe the Elohim were indifferent to what Foul was doing in the Land - I believe thie appointment of Findail to be a demonstration of thier concern which, while perhaps not explicitly stated, is implicit in this action alone. As to 'why Findail', I think his appointment was not punishment per se for previous sins- but was more in the line of the man in the lifeboat who draws the short straw that says he must be dinner for his shipmates.

Vain grabbed Ceer's ankle to anchor him while he rescued Linden after she was tossed over the edge of the dromond. At another point, Vain grabbed Findail's wrist and kept him locked by his side.

And WGW contains the following text:

Findail did not glance at Covenant. In Elemesnedene, the
Elohim had treated Covenant as if he were of no personal im-
portance; and now the Appointed seemed to take that stance
again. He asked Linden, "Is it the ring-wielder's intent to sur-
render his ring?"

At once. Covenant snapped, "No!" Refusals ran in him like
echoes of old delirium. Never give him the ring. Never. It was
all that remained to him.

"Then," Findail sighed, "I must answer as I may, hoping to
persuade him from his folly.'

And -

"Surely it is plain that for us the easiest path lay in the sim-
ple wresting from him of the ring. With wild magic could we
bid any Despite defiance. Then for beings such as we are it
would be no great task to achieve the perfection of the Earth.
Yet that we did not do. Some among us feared the arrogance
of such power, when a shadow plainly lay upon our hearts.
And some saw that the entire price of such an act would fall
upon you alone. You would be lost to yourselves, deprived of
meaning and value. Perhaps the meaning and value of the
Earth would be diminished as well...Now I say to you that he
must be persuaded to surrender his ring. If he does not, it is
certain that he will destroy the Earth."

Findail was Appointed to lift Kastenessan's curse or doom upon him by acquiring the white gold for their own uses.

He railed against us, and against the heavens, and against the Wurd. To me especially he gave curses, promising a doom which would surpass all his dismay-for I had been nearer to him among the Elohim than any other, and I would not hear him.

The Sunbane was indeed a threat to the Elohim, although only in the long run. The Sunbane, growing large enough to encompass the Earth, would reduce even the Elohim to mere playthings of the Despiser. While LF would find that amusing, it would not be as fulfilling as complete release from imprisonment beneath the AoT.

[spoonchicken]

I KNEW this would be a thought-provoking thread when I started it !!!!....*dislocates elbow patting himself on the back*...LOLOLOLOL

[peter]

The quotes you give WOTWE, seem to me to confirm my belief that the Elohims purpouse was not to wrest TC's ring from him, but rather to have him surrender it to Linden so that the Sun Sage and the White Gold Wielder would become one; only if this were the case could the earth be healed.
Regarding Findails appointment, I refer you to the line in Chapter 20 of WGW (the Sun Sage) where he says "Kastenessen cursed me with death, but I am not made for death - I must not die". Vain replys "You will not die - It is not death, it is purpouse."
These events occur after the confrontation in chapter 17 (Into the Wightwarrens) where Findail has attempted to destroy Vain by blasting out the rock from under him, thus precipitating him into the abyss. As he falls "... his dead arm lashed out, struck like a snake. His right hand closed on Findails forearm. The Appointed was pulled after him over the ledge."
Vain and Findail reappear in Chapter 20 where the above words I have quoted are spoken.
Vain then goes on to instruct Linden to embrace them both (proof positive if ever it was needed that Findail was always to be part of the reformed staff) which she does, and the new staff is formed.
The Elohim were quite aware in my oppinion that this was to be Findails doom, or there would have been no point in their attempt to bring the White Gold Wielder and the Sun Sage into one being (ie they would not have known that this had to be done.)
The only question that remains to be answered is what Findail had done that required him to be appointed by Kastenessen to face this fate.

[peter]

I KNEW this would be a thought-provoking thread when I started it !!!!....*dislocates elbow patting himself on the back*...LOLOLOLOL

Spoonchicken, you are indeed a servant of Foul, but yes - good thread, made all the better for having a worthy adversory!

[wayfriend]

The quotes you give WOTWE, seem to me to confirm my belief that the Elohims purpouse was not to wrest TC's ring from him, but rather to have him surrender it to Linden so that the Sun Sage and the White Gold Wielder would become one; only if this were the case could the earth be healed.

I don't think it's that simple, because I think the Elohim saw more than one outcome that they considered "good", and therefore angled for.

Findail certainly thought the outcome where Covenant gave him the ring was a good one.

He also wanted Linden to have the ring, and I think the reason for that had a lot more to do with protecting the Earth from Covenant's wild-magic-powered venom than with healing the Sunbane.

On the other hand, Findail and the Elohim did not want to see a Staff of Law created. This had little to do with preserving Findail; he was after all Appointed, and what Appointed doesn't end up morphing into an inanimate object? No, I think that this had a lot more to do with the fact that a Staff of Law constrains Earthpower by re-inforcing the Laws that circumscribe what Earthpower can do. In a sense, Elohim see Law as something of a prison. They cherish their memories of being free and unbound before the Earth's creation, as attested to by the Elohimfest. As beings of Earthpower, they are ultimately restrained by Law.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The only question that remains to be answered is what Findail had done that required him to be appointed by Kastenessen to face this fate.

Findail was not Appointed by Kasty, he cursed Findail. In the post above I mentioned why he cursed Findail: because Findail was closest to Kasty but he would not listen to his pleas.

The only question you needed to ask was - why Appoint Findail, out of all the Elohim, to the quest to retrieve the ring? Particular Elohim are appointed for particular reasons. In this case the reason for Findail's Appointment was to lift Kasty's doom or curse.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The quotes you give WOTWE, seem to me to confirm my belief that the Elohims purpouse was not to wrest TC's ring from him, but rather to have him surrender it to Linden so that the Sun Sage and the White Gold Wielder would become one; only if this were the case could the earth be healed.

Wresting the ring from TC was never a question for me. And there is nothing in the text to indicate that the Elohim's purpose was to merge Sun Sage and Ringwielder. There is much to indicate that the Elohim wanted the ring for their own purposes. With it, healing the Sunbane would have been an effortless task, there would be no need to sacrifice Findail.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The quotes you give WOTWE, seem to me to confirm my belief that the Elohims purpouse was not to wrest TC's ring from him, but rather to have him surrender it to Linden so that the Sun Sage and the White Gold Wielder would become one; only if this were the case could the earth be healed.

I don't think it's that simple, because I think the Elohim saw more than one outcome that they considered "good", and therefore angled for.

Findail certainly thought the outcome where Covenant gave him the ring was a good one.

He also wanted Linden to have the ring, and I think the reason for that had a lot more to do with protecting the Earth from Covenant's wild-magic-powered venom than with healing the Sunbane.

Indeed, the text indicates that the Elohim believed letting TC keep the ring would lead to the worst possible outcome. They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

The Elohim could have wrested the ring from TC but such an action would have left a shadow upon their hearts which would have diminished the ring's capabilities for them.

[Vraith]

The quotes you give WOTWE, seem to me to confirm my belief that the Elohims purpouse was not to wrest TC's ring from him, but rather to have him surrender it to Linden so that the Sun Sage and the White Gold Wielder would become one; only if this were the case could the earth be healed.

I don't think it's that simple, because I think the Elohim saw more than one outcome that they considered "good", and therefore angled for.

Findail certainly thought the outcome where Covenant gave him the ring was a good one.

He also wanted Linden to have the ring, and I think the reason for that had a lot more to do with protecting the Earth from Covenant's wild-magic-powered venom than with healing the Sunbane.

Indeed, the text indicates that the Elohim believed letting TC keep the ring would lead to the worst possible outcome. They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

The Elohim could have wrested the ring from TC but such an action would have left a shadow upon their hearts which would have diminished the ring's capabilities for them.

Agree, except for last: with the ring they would be TOO powerful if/when the shadow corrupted them [the shadow was already there, not something that would be caused by the ring].

[wayfriend]

They were shocked and aggrieved to learn that Sun Sage and ringwielder were not one and the same person in Linden.

And that is the most critical of clues. Except I have no idea what it means.

The Elohim get the truth from the very Earth itself. So how could they be mistaken about the Sun-Sage? And what does it mean that they were?

My only idea so far is that this mistake represents a flaw, that the Elohim cannot comprehend some things. Whether those some things are mortals from Covenant's world, or the human element of the equation, or their own dark hearts, or something else, I don't know.

Certainly they did not understand that, had Linden been given the ring earlier than when she finally got it, it would have spelled the doom of the world. The power would have put her over the edge, and her inner darkness would have taken control.

Those things seem connected to me.