Kevin's Watch

SRD says important things about Elena, particularly why she was chosen to be High Lord, in the "Insights on Elena?" question here:
stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor/page.php?Page=4

Personally, I can't stand her. Here's what I said a few years ago:

When the chips were down, she was reckless, arrogant, and stupid. To disregard Amok, a being of vast experience and knowledge; to presume to know better than Kevin, who knew far more about power than she did; to dismiss Covenant's concerns... Without stopping to consider for five lousy minutes, she gives a Command that is based on her fantasy that "there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair - strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite." She never thinks, "But is it possible that I'm wrong? Could it be that Kevin is not be as powerful because of all that as I've hypothesized? Maybe I should reconsider before I take the chance of screwing with horrible consequences that Amok warns of."

As for THOOLAH... Before the Final Chrons came out, I was a member-in-jest. Yes, she was as annoying as any character in literature. And yes, I did want Covenant instead of her. But she was only the main POV for part of one book. And she did grow into a hero. And she was very important to Covenant, and the entire Second Chrons.

Then came the Final Chrons. Now I just hate her. But I've said why often enough in the Final Chrons forum. No point in getting my blood pressure up again.

I don't believe she was reckless, it was a one chance opportunity that could have made the difference in the war, she believed she had a responsibility to the land, her lordship and her beloved to use any weapon against despite, remember TC had no idea and had refused to wield the wild magic. Was she supposed to shrug and march back to revelstone leaving such a potent weapon behind, knowing that the warward were fighting a desperate battle at the same time? Maybe she should've. But hindsight is a wonderful thing, she was a plot sacrifice to break TC resistance and break his passive stance to the lands plight. She most definately wasn't stupid, she overcame her strange childhood to not only pass the tests at the loresraat but rise to high lord in the lands most challenging time.
Arrogance? I think she was definately sure of herself, as a highlord in a time of war and crises I think she needed to be, it was part of the reason she was chosen as highlord, she had inner mettle. Can you really read arrogance in her character leading up to the tragic mistake she made? I read nothing but admiration for her in the other lords and people of the land. Even TC loves her, her affection for him and his abuse of that which he so desperatly needs broke him. Amok may have cautioned it's use but he led her there because he knew the land was in danger, she was given a power without the necessary wards that were designed to stop this exact thing happening. She was responsible but amok, foul and TC pushed her to the edge of the precipice. She merely jumped. I have only empathy for her, I really think she is misunderstood and unfairly judged.

Sorry, I know I'm coming late to the party, but after hearing SRD talk about Elena at the Elohimfest, answering your question Jonnyredleader, I wanted to take a peek at what everyone's thoughts on Elena are/were. I admit to being really surprised when I read some folks don't like her, as I've loved her from the moment I first read Illearth War mumble-mumble years ago. Next to Mhoram, she's the most fully-realized supporting character in the series, to me anyway. I had a science fiction literature professor in college who once shared his own personal definition of a well-defined character: if he found himself wondering what that character was doing after he finished the book, then the character had been beautifully brought to life. If that's the case, then Elena is that character for me, even after her fate at the end of the book; I find myself wondering what she's doing/thinking/feeling during her time in Andelain, with all that time on her hands to contemplate her mistake.

I was also personally blown away by how well SRD challenged people's mores in the way he presented her falling in love with Covenant. There was a part of me that almost wished it could have worked out for them to be together, if only so her tortured soul could have found happiness, and to an extent him as well. Then of course I realize how creepy that would always be and know it was best the way it turned out, but still, there's the nagging part of me -- haunted by that tragic beauty SRD crafted so well -- that wishes it and will continue to do so every time I re-read the books. I know, I know. Creepy. But still...

Glad you asked SRD that question at the 'Fest, Jonny; I know it was tough to encapsulate so much into just a few sentences.

Spoiler

Here's hoping Elena (and those of us who will always be her fans) get some peace from the final volume of the Last Chronicles.

Ahhh you say it so much more eloquently than me and i think you nailed it. For a character that was only really in one book she has a lasting impact on me and the story 8 books later.

I readily admit the whole affair just confused me at 13 year old (like most things haha) she was, next to Hile the hero of the Illearth War, courageous, strong, dedicated and yet underneath was just a sweet, loving, caring woman that wanted to share her life with her beloved and serve the land.....ahhhh im still confused about it.. SRD really challenged my ethics over this one.

jonnyredleader wrote:Ahhh you say it so much more eloquently than me and i think you nailed it. For a character that was only really in one book she has a lasting impact on me and the story 8 books later.

I readily admit the whole affair just confused me at 13 year old (like most things haha) she was, next to Hile the hero of the Illearth War, courageous, strong, dedicated and yet underneath was just a sweet, loving, caring woman that wanted to share her life with her beloved and serve the land.....ahhhh im still confused about it.. SRD really challenged my ethics over this one.

Elena is definitely one of my favourite characters in the chrons too, such a complex character.
However JRL, the way you characterise her(courageous/strong/dedicated/sweet/loving/caring - all valid traits observed in TIW) glosses over one of the most interesting things about the one-time High Lord : she was as mad as a cut snake !!
The way SRD describes the whole 'otherness' of her gaze, the sense of dislocation in her eyes, was a wonderful way of foreshadowing her Big Mistake, and hinted at flaws that were more pronounced the further the story went.
I just re-read (well, re-listened on audio book) the whole Blood of the Earth part of TIW for the millionth time - the scene where Elena is desperately embracing Covenant and says something like (I really should be able to quote this stuff automatically, but I'm paraphrasing) "This too the Despiser would see destroyed" before revealing her face to TC is quite powerful.
TC can tell just at a glance that she is insane.
There are quite a few instances when her 'other' gaze comes into focus and TC gets the hellfire frightened out of him.
"Does my vehemence suprise you ?" she asks innocently at one point.
As for Hile Troy being the hero of TIW, I can't agree with that; Mhoram bailed him out of a huge hole of his own digging; up to that point he had made an arse of himself at every opportunity - TC had him pegged, telling Troy to his face that he had over-committed himself, telling others that he was a 'fanatic' and making various comments that he had let the Land (and Elena) seduce him without properly weighing up the consequences of his allegiance.
Having said that, he was a great, great character, and the many scenes contrasting his and TC's approach to their immersion in the Land served to illustrate the legitimacy of TC's passive role (to that point in the story)in the Land's fate - It was Hile Troy who first made me see TC's 'Unbelief' as a pretty pragmatic approach to their predicament.

SleeplessOne wrote:the way you characterise her(courageous/strong/dedicated/sweet/loving/caring - all valid traits observed in TIW) glosses over one of the most interesting things about the one-time High Lord : she was as mad as a cut snake !!
TC can tell just at a glance that she is insane.

Great post! I agree 100%. Elena was always unbalanced, and I would say, always doing Foul's work for him.

You know how LF is always telling Covenant and Linden that all their choices actually serve him, they just aren't smart enough to see his long-term plans? Well with Elena it was true. He didn't even have to appear to her and taunt her as he did Covenant, Linden, & Kevin. She was his from the beginning.

As for Hile Troy, never cared for him. I was always wishing someone (TC?) would pop him one in the chops.

He's slightly more palatable as Caer-Caveral (very slightly). Frankly I've never understood the hero-worship of Troy, who was, when all is said and done, a small-minded and myopic person. Sure, he did some things that can be said to be heroic, but let's not erect statues of him at Revelstone. He was a decent general with an abrasive, irritating personality.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

SleeplessOne wrote:the way you characterise her(courageous/strong/dedicated/sweet/loving/caring - all valid traits observed in TIW) glosses over one of the most interesting things about the one-time High Lord : she was as mad as a cut snake !!
TC can tell just at a glance that she is insane.

Great post! I agree 100%. Elena was always unbalanced, and I would say, always doing Foul's work for him.

You know how LF is always telling Covenant and Linden that all their choices actually serve him, they just aren't smart enough to see his long-term plans? Well with Elena it was true. He didn't even have to appear to her and taunt her as he did Covenant, Linden, & Kevin. She was his from the beginning.As for Hile Troy, never cared for him. I was always wishing someone (TC?) would pop him one in the chops.

He's slightly more palatable as Caer-Caveral (very slightly). Frankly I've never understood the hero-worship of Troy, who was, when all is said and done, a small-minded and myopic person. Sure, he did some things that can be said to be heroic, but let's not erect statues of him at Revelstone. He was a decent general with an abrasive, irritating personality.

re :the highlighted section - 'flawed from birth' to quote Triock

Flaws aren't necessarily a bad thing, though. In glass making, it's flaws that bring out color, beauty, and shine. (of course, the wrong kind will also ruin the piece).

Orlion wrote:Flaws aren't necessarily a bad thing, though. In glass making, it's flaws that bring out color, beauty, and shine. (of course, the wrong kind will also ruin the piece).

well, in SRD's worlds it seems nearly everything must contain a flaw.

yes i suppose i do gloss over the flaws of Elena but then i guess its because i identify with those flaws or at least understand them. its not madness, my take is that shes just unbalanced with her feelings and has not lost her mind. Theres no way she would be High lord, a friend of Mhoram, loved by the Ranyhyn etc
She hates foul for what hes dong to the land.
she loves covenant because feels he is her saviour and her mothers hero.
shes passionate about her role as high lord.
Her emotions and passion are just the wrong side of controlled beauty which lies between passion and control, shes an Anakin Skywalker, lead by her heart and feelings and passion. Unbalanced is not mad. but then dont we all get a little insane when we fall in love, isnt that the very definition?
im the romantic sort so i will always understand and empathise with Elena.

jonnyredleader wrote:yes i suppose i do gloss over the flaws of Elena but then i guess its because i identify with those flaws or at least understand them. its not madness, my take is that shes just unbalanced with her feelings and has not lost her mind. Theres no way she would be High lord, a friend of Mhoram, loved by the Ranyhyn etc
She hates foul for what hes dong to the land.
she loves covenant because feels he is her saviour and her mothers hero.
shes passionate about her role as high lord.
Her emotions and passion are just the wrong side of controlled beauty which lies between passion and control, shes an Anakin Skywalker, lead by her heart and feelings and passion. Unbalanced is not mad. but then dont we all get a little insane when we fall in love, isnt that the very definition?
im the romantic sort so i will always understand and empathise with Elena.

Elena is basically incapable of seeing new ways to do things and incapable of finding new responses to despair. What always causes Foul to lose is that Covenant never does what Foul expects him to do. Same with Linden. He expects Covenant to use his power, he expects Linden to possess Covenant and force his actions...and both characters confound him by finding new ways to accomplish their aims.

Elena doesn't. She acts just as Foul predicts she'll act, which hints at a serious character flaw. I also maintain she is at least slightly mentally ill - I think there is enough evidence in the books to make that diagnosis.

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Elena is basically incapable of seeing new ways to do things and incapable of finding new responses to despair. What always causes Foul to lose is that Covenant never does what Foul expects him to do. Same with Linden. He expects Covenant to use his power, he expects Linden to possess Covenant and force his actions...and both characters confound him by finding new ways to accomplish their aims.

Elena doesn't. She acts just as Foul predicts she'll act, which hints at a serious character flaw. I also maintain she is at least slightly mentally ill - I think there is enough evidence in the books to make that diagnosis.

I don't think I'd go quite as far as "mentally ill," but other than that much worth noting...because it leads to interesting stuff...why is everyone so predictable to LF? And what things make them UNpredictable? There's a short answer to that...but long in exploring [and I'd have to seriously spoiler to cover all the ways it grows later on]...but in a silly black-hole analogy, cuz I love black holes... LF knows there are acts/attitudes/forces to deny him, though he can't do/feel/express them himself he know they're there. He observes and uses his knowledge/influence to limit knowledge of those things...but some transcend. Most who do are foreigners, cuz they're not weighed down by history/knowledge/culture/failure of the Land as it is.
Elena has a flaw...but really almost everyone born there has even worse flaws, and act even MORE predictably than Elena.

Why do you think she's mentally ill?
Confused? Naive? Misguided? Hopelessly in over her head dealing with a more powerful foul with the addition of the illearth stone and no wards of power to resist him with the destruction of everything she has loved so carefully? Maybe, but then I would be feeling pretty desperate in her situation too.
It's easier for covenant and Linden. They have nothing to lose except escape, nothing they care about is in the balance.
But when Linden has something she cares about threatened she goes into crazy mode too bit thats for a different thread

After seeing Zorm's great drawing in the last chronicles thread, I wanted to do a drawing of Elena and Covenant at their quest for the 7th ward. Could you help with their appearance? I'm not sure what they are wearing at this point. I think Covenant is still in his old clothing here. Am I right?

Elena in lords robe and TC in jeans White tshirt an boots.. I'm pretty sure

jonnyredleader wrote:Elena in lords robe and TC in jeans White tshirt an boots.. I'm pretty sure

As near as I can tell as well... it seems they let TC keep his clothing after the Summonsing, and with the Staff of Law in Elena's hand, they wouldn't have to worry about the enemy tracking them through TC's foreign clothing.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

illender wrote:...just got to the end of my reread of illearth war. i know everyone says she was crazy, but i think im in love.

Elena is/was unbalanced but cool. One really stupid mistake with the Earthblood. There were 10,000 other Commands she could have given that would have been far superior. How about Commanding the Illearth Stone's destruction?

However, without the Staff of Law being lost, Foul would have taken longer to regenerate himself and also would have needed a new plan for the Second Chronicles. Without the Sunbane maybe he would have tried a Last Chronicles-like plan instead.

Spoiler

I wonder what Kastenessen was up to at the time?

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Probably merging with the fire-worm things, the name of which I've forgotten.

Sherman Landlearner wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote:

illender wrote:...just got to the end of my reread of illearth war. i know everyone says she was crazy, but i think im in love.

Elena is/was unbalanced but cool. One really stupid mistake with the Earthblood. There were 10,000 other Commands she could have given that would have been far superior. How about Commanding the Illearth Stone's destruction?

However, without the Staff of Law being lost, Foul would have taken longer to regenerate himself and also would have needed a new plan for the Second Chronicles. Without the Sunbane maybe he would have tried a Last Chronicles-like plan instead.

Spoiler

I wonder what Kastenessen was up to at the time?

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Probably merging with the fire-worm things, the name of which I've forgotten.

Spoiler

Skurj.

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Thanks.

My thoughts on Elena: She was raised by an unbalanced mother. Her grandparents were too absorbed in her own pain. She was also raised by Triock who, love her though he did, had a pained hatred for TC. This impacted her with a rage for what had happened to her mother, and a rage for being unable to help her grandparents. As for Foul knowing what she would do, I recall him telling Covenant on Kevin's Watch something to the effect that he expected the Law of Death to be broken. So it might have been Mhoram who would do this. Someone was going to be pushed into thinking this would work. Maybe it would have been a villain instead of a hero. Maybe it would have been TC hoping to bring a spirit which would do this for him. At that time, LF would have no reason to know Elena would be conceived.