What if we hadn't killed OBL?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I was not aware that we were supposed to care about other people's opinion of us. I'll have to pencil that onto my schedule of things to do in the future.

We are the United States, therefore in the court of world opinion we will we damned if we do (such as ending the war with Japan by dropping two atomic bombs) and damned if we don't (such as in not capturing Saddam Hussein in 1991).

Since people are going to gripe about us no matter what we do, our only option is to decide for ourselves what our best course of action is and then proceed.

If we had captured Mr. bin Laden and brought him back here for trial, then people would be saying that we were actually torturing him while he was being held in jail or that we were sending him to a kangaroo court.

Pakistan is upset that we violated their sovereignty and they have every right to be. However, why aren't people upset that Pakistan was sheltering a terrorist?

[Worm of Despite]

Comparing us to N. Korea, finn? A bit of a wide disparity between their rights and ours. While I'd have skipped Iraq, at least we got rid of some murderous, oppressive regimes. If that's what we do, then I wish global power for America.

Civilians were killed, but that's war.

What would your country do against terrorism, Finn? Take it I suppose, or defend your people and damn the critics.

And we're no longer a symbol of hope? Why do we still get the most immigrants?

[finn]

LF,

OK a bit of hyperbole to illustrate perhaps, but Nations who breach international law whenever they feel like it are labelled rogue states, North Korea is such a nation because it does this. If the US does the same then however far apart they may be on some scales they are acting similarly in others.

If that's what we do, then I wish global power for America

Of course you do, you are an American. However the rest of the world isn't and despite the fact that there are lawless and cruel regimes out there, there are also countries who are enlighted and freer that America: you don't hold patent on these things. As for civilians killed such a comment does little to take account of the fact that the best part of 1 million Iraqis have been killed by conflict and the effects of the sanctions.... how are we now at comparisons 1,000,000 against 3000 and why because Saddam wanted to trade oil in Euros?

As for what my country did, my current one lost people in Bali, but it has stood and still stands shoulder to shoulder with the US. My previous one was fighting terrorists sponsored by you guys before your media could spell the word. Whip rounds for the IRA in American bars sposored terrorists bombings of army bandstands and department stores at Christmas, but what do we Brits do? We stand beside you shoulder to shoulder, taking per capita higher losses that the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What neither of my countries do is wet their pants every time a kid blows up and pops a paper bag or have a news media that publicly starts asking questions designed to frighten the gullible to get ratings up. There's the real Hyperbole.

Do you get the most immigrants? Try Europe or pro rata, Australia.

Hashi, you are supposed to care because you choose to leave your borders, you can be welcomed or not ...your call. However just a tip guests don't bring their aircraft carriers into the lounge. As for damnation, I think most intelligent people who have studied even on a cursory basis, the ending of the war with Japan conclude that whilst we would never wish to see such again, it was a legitimate action at the time.

For me I don't damn you for doing right but I do for doing wrong especially in a careless or self centred manner......if US foreign policy over the last 20-30 years was manifested as a human, it would be an Aspergers sufferer. We are shifting from a paradigm of World Wars and military machines to an altogether different world of men in caves with the most sophisticated technology at their finger tips. We are looking at an old world orders rattling sabres like as Connerey said, "bringing knives to a gun fight".

The world is changing and technologies and ideologies are sufficiently balanced now that bullying and threats of massive armies etc, will simply not work. As such we all need to learn how to live in world as a community, not a place to to exploit. This is why you get targetted when you travel and that the world seems to damn you for everything. If you actually gave a toss for what other people think instead of treading on their necks whilst pillaging their resources, maybe you'd be able travel with a far greater sense of freedom. As it the nation of the free is not free from fear.


However this digresses from the point which is that this US Administration has, after so much criticism of the Bush Regime, not only continued to flaut International Law, (laws by the way that it has agreed to and signed declarations to uphold), but has not even tried to put the Bush spin on any legality it might conceivably have.

Does anyone really believe the timing of this is not about Obama and his re-election? This man has looked the world in the eye and lied strait faced about his moral compass. The rest of the world who gave him a Nobel prize based upon the promise and hope of those lies will not so easily be fooled again.

[Worm of Despite]

LF,

OK a bit of hyperbole to illustrate perhaps, but Nations who breach international law whenever they feel like it are labelled rogue states, North Korea is such a nation because it does this. If the US does the same then however far apart they may be on some scales they are acting similarly in others.

Other than Iraq, we've invaded countries that obviously incubated terrorism. We're not just going about breaching things willy-nilly. There's a big plethora of reasoning and the possibility Pakistan was harboring a mass-murderer the whole time. We were either going to kill him then or in some other country. He wasn't going to come to our doorstep.

We kill this shit face and you accuse us of being a "rogue nation"? Come off it.

If that's what we do, then I wish global power for America

Of course you do, you are an American.

I gave a reason for why I said I approve of the U.S. being #1, not "because I'm an American." Read my post again.

We're not even a hegemony compared to the last world powers. You people, as you say, are as free as us and when was that so in the days of Pax Britannica or the Roman Empire? Again; come off it.

As for civilians killed such a comment does little to take account of the fact that the best part of 1 million Iraqis have been killed by conflict and the effects of the sanctions.... how are we now at comparisons 1,000,000 against 3000 and why because Saddam wanted to trade oil in Euros?

The accuracy of the death toll in the Iraqi War varies greatly from tens of thousands to, yes, the conveniently chosen 1,000,000 Persian Army that we somehow slaughtered out in the desert. I don't personally mind that Bush took out Saddam, and I don't think the vast majority of Americans revel in morbid comeuppance or gleefully compare the death charts.

Again and again, I'm seeing nothing but a two-dimensional rendering of what you think the U.S. is. We are civilized. We are free. I'm not sure what "freer" is in other countries, but I daresay we have as much or more than most.

If your country was a super-power, you'd have similar problems as ours; you'd be exerting yourself like any power does. You wouldn't be immune. In fact you might even be defending the country from criticism, such as I'm doing now. I doubt another European-influenced nation could do much better than our conduct, and history shows they never did.

Do you get the most immigrants? Try Europe or pro rata, Australia.

We get the most immigrants of any country. Europe is a continent--several countries. A lot of them. Australia? We eclipse them: 20% of the world's immigrants with the next country having 6%.

Recent surveys by Gallup found roughly 700 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance. The United States is the top desired destination country. Nearly one-quarter (24%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 165 million adults worldwide, name the United States as their desired future residence. With an additional estimated 45 million saying they would like to move to Canada, Northern America is one of the two most desired regions.

It's funny though; you can't even give us that. We're just some big boogieman for you. BOO!

The world is changing and technologies and ideologies are sufficiently balanced now that bullying and threats of massive armies etc, will simply not work. As such we all need to learn how to live in world as a community, not a place to to exploit.

Yes sir, Nostradamus! Unfortunately none of us are ready for this, or we'd be doing it already.

[finn]

Other than Iraq, we've invaded countries that obviously incubated terrorism. We're not just going about breaching things willy-nilly. There's a big plethora of reasoning and the possibility Pakistan was harboring a mass-murderer the whole time. We were either going to kill him then or in some other country. He wasn't going to come to our doorstep.

Rationalising why you have breached the International Law the US signed up to abide by and uphold misses the point entirely, I'm sure that to a Lord kim lee Foul in downtown Pyongyang, Uncle Kim Il and the NKs have good reasons for why they do what they do.

If that's what we do, then I wish global power for America

Of course you do, you are an American.

I gave a reason for why I said I approve of the U.S. being #1, not "because I'm an American." Read my post again..

....and I gave one for an answer read mine.

As for civilians killed such a comment does little to take account of the fact that the best part of 1 million Iraqis have been killed by conflict and the effects of the sanctions.... how are we now at comparisons 1,000,000 against 3000 and why because Saddam wanted to trade oil in Euros?

The accuracy of the death toll in the Iraqi War varies greatly from tens of thousands to, yes, the conveniently chosen 1,000,000 Persian Army that we somehow slaughtered out in the desert. Again and again, I'm seeing nothing but a two-dimensional rendering of what you think the U.S. is. We are civilized. We are free. I'm not sure what "freer" is in other countries, but I daresay we have as much or more than most.

Again, read the post...

The world is changing and technologies and ideologies are sufficiently balanced now that bullying and threats of massive armies etc, will simply not work. As such we all need to learn how to live in world as a community, not a place to to exploit.

Yes sir, Nostradamus! Unfortunately none of us are ready for this, or we'd be doing it already.

There are many that do and are ready, currently America refuses to be amongst them.

Look I really don't enjoy pissing on your parade and I am glad that this particular shit face is no longer topside. But I am disturbed by the cavalier nature of the way this has been done and the seeming liklihood which grows stronger daily that this was a planned execution with no intent for any attempt at due process. I am also disturbed that America has again taken it into its own hands to waltz into other countries in violations of laws and treaties it has signed up to.

However for me the most sinister thing is that Obama may well have structured this whole thing as a stunt to launch a re-election campaign.

[Worm of Despite]

Look I really don't enjoy pissing on your parade and I am glad that this particular shit face is no longer topside.

Works for me.

Again; I don't see the comparison between North Korea and America. They're not doing anything close to what we're doing aside from glowing in Kim Jong-il worship, and their recent aggression to South Korea was so unsubstantiated and laughable (and drawn from some kind of seething hatred and envy of their Southern brothers) that I can't see one clear parallel between their actions and ours. We're addressing terrorist threats to our nation, and aside from Iraq our dismantling of the Taliban and now bin Laden is evidence of that.

Again; he would never come to us so we'd have to kill him in some other country. I'm not sure how we're suppose to take him out in order to satisfy you. Open up talks with Pakistan and take that chance of him slipping out? The last time we used indigenous Arabs to take out bin Laden they obfuscated and debated while he rode out.

Yes; I don't approve of everything we've done (I think Iraq could've been avoided, and the rioting in the Middle-East today would've impelled the U.N. to take Saddam out, because surely he'd commit more atrocities than 10 Gaddafis to quiet his people down).

I think by and large we've done much better than past powers and the world's in relative peace, aside from some hot spots and riots now and then thanks to the economy.

The world is changing and technologies and ideologies are sufficiently balanced now that bullying and threats of massive armies etc, will simply not work. As such we all need to learn how to live in world as a community, not a place to to exploit.

Yes sir, Nostradamus! Unfortunately none of us are ready for this, or we'd be doing it already.

There are many that do and are ready, currently America refuses to be amongst them.

"Many"? We're in a day and age where if the U.S. wasn't a power there'd be another doing the exact same thing. It's not just, Oh, the U.S. goes away and it's all a happy community. It might even be the opposite, come to think of it. Someone else fills the void. The utopia you speak of will most likely be a gradual process similar to feudalism to universal suffrage.

Again, read the post...

Nah. I think we've both elucidated our stances and are at a point where neither of us are interested in the opposing view. So what point would reading it more produce? We're just going to agree to disagree, and a forum where I have to read something twice is a reason why I'm not in the Tank often.

[finn]

Hmmmmm, is it the detail in the devil or the devil in the detail....?

I agree that by and large we could be a lot worse off than having America as the dominant power, but that does not mean anyone cannot or will not look to improve their position. That goes from the west negotiating some limits and restraints on the use of that power to genuine rogue nations like NK and others trying to get up by more sneaky means..... or us discussing it

However, the massive US military has not succeeded in toppling the Taliban any more that the Russians did, the Israelis have not quashed the Palestinians and Al Queda has not been destroyed and if you look at the record, "wins" have been remarkably few in 10 years.

The Brits have been doing this for a while with the IRA. Troops were deployed but at no time was there any suggestion that the Provisional IRA was anything other than criminals, organised thugs. If groups such as AlQueda are engaged as TheFallen points out, as warriors, freedom fighters or a rallying point for those with idealist or religious agendas they are glorified and we do their work for them. The political nature of the west is fundamentaly about popularity and placation and people like OBL have played on that and had the worlds politicians dancing on strings to the tune he played.

Bush did this to bignote himself and now Obama is doing the same. The rejoicing is understandable, but this action has been done in a way that further erodes the fabric of western values that we take to be the things worth defending against the likes of AQ. In the act of killing OBL he was given a win. In enacting the Patriot Act and the legislation in the UK and Australia and many European countries that rolled back civil liberties, he was given a win, in invading Iraq he was given a win...... all these wins make people less free.

Our politicians have exploited the opportunities AQ and others have presented for their own political ends, Howard and Bush were cynical, Blair was pompous, but Obama's arrogance seems to make him feel he should not even make a face of legitimacy...I think he might believe he or at least the office he holds, is above the law...empire? Hmmm, Obama is giving the masses games just as the Romans did, to shore up popularity.

If we look at the "war on terror" over the 10 years we have been waging it, we have been the ones losing. The manner in which we conduct ourselves now and the standards we now accept as OK shows the degree to which we have lost ground. Did AQ or OBL force us at gunpoint to make changes in what we have always deemed our fundamental priniples? No, our own politicians did it and not very reluctantly, using AQ and OBL as a pretext for doing so.

AQ and OBL are not the ones we should be fighting, they are criminals, they are not noble enough to wage a war. Our vigilance should be within our borders, at the checks and balances that keep leaders in order. THIS is where the achievement is hollow, those checks and balances have been ignored or circumvented, which ones will be next to go and what will pay for them...... habeas corpus for knocking off Kim Il Sung or maybe freedom of the press in exchange for Gaddafi's head... what price law?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Hashi, you are supposed to care because you choose to leave your borders, you can be welcomed or not ...your call.

I will have to disagree with this because I am not going to waste emotional energy worrying about whether or not someone, or an entire nation of someones, likes me. No mature, rational adult should worry about what others think of them.

[Vraith]

Hashi, you are supposed to care because you choose to leave your borders, you can be welcomed or not ...your call.

I will have to disagree with this because I am not going to waste emotional energy worrying about whether or not someone, or an entire nation of someones, likes me. No mature, rational adult should worry about what others think of them.

False. There are many many rational/pragmatic reasons and just as many positive emotional/subjective ones [and even some ideological ones, though you always have to be cautious around ideologies] for seeking/desiring the approval of others. It's only irrational when ones fundamental or sole "reasons" are to gain approbation.
No mature, rational adult never cares what others think of them...and the same is true for a nation.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Well, of course ther are circumstances where I care about what others think of them. I am always concerned about my wife's opinion of me.

[finn]

Hashi, you are supposed to care because you choose to leave your borders, you can be welcomed or not ...your call.

I will have to disagree with this because I am not going to waste emotional energy worrying about whether or not someone, or an entire nation of someones, likes me. No mature, rational adult should worry about what others think of them.

I think the message is more about them NOT liking you for the things you do because you don't give a damn about what they think.

The extension of this is they get pissed and blow shit up and you then scratch your head, look around and say "what did I do?"

[Cail]

Well, of course ther are circumstances where I care about what others think of them. I am always concerned about my wife's opinion of me.

Wife and daughter. Otherwise I couldn't care any less.

[Savor Dam]

At least you are secure in your dog's opinion, per your long-time sig...

[Avatar]

I think the message is more about them NOT liking you for the things you do because you don't give a damn about what they think.

The extension of this is they get pissed and blow shit up and you then scratch your head, look around and say "what did I do?"

Nothing happens in a vacuum, and everybody thinks they have good reasons for what they do.

--A

[Cail]

At least you are secure in your dog's opinion, per your long-time sig...

The benefits of unconditional love.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I think the message is more about them NOT liking you for the things you do because you don't give a damn about what they think.

The extension of this is they get pissed and blow shit up and you then scratch your head, look around and say "what did I do?"

People who think like Mr. bin Laden are going to dislike us no matter what we do.

The usually-stated reasons for acting against us are because we are a "Great Satan" or that we are "oppressive" or that we "stick our nose where it doesn't belong" or "we support Israel". The real reason to target us is because we are an easy target.
For years, we have supported the ideas of Freedom and Personal Liberty, meaning that we used to be able to carry pocket knives or fingernail clippers onto airplanes. The terrorists saw an opportunity and took advantage of it.

Also, they see many people here engaging in "immoral" behavior and they take the stance that they find this offensive. The reality of this, of course, is that immorality exists in their own countries but it is easier to demonize the United States than to take offense at rich sheiks who travel to Southeast Asia to "sample some native fare" (if you don't know what I mean, then don't ask).

They think we are oppressive. erm...at least I can get the haircut I want here. There are certain haircut styles that are illegal for men to wear in Iran. Besides, China is considerably more oppressive that we are but you don't see terrorists targeting buildings in Beijing.

No, they just picked us as an easy target and they have been beating that one issue to death for decades.

[finn]

Hashi,

Most people do not think like Mr. Bin Laden.

You also know I'm sure that the CIA and various American (as well as French, British, German, etc) corporate interests have been manipulating the world for political favour, resources, markets and idealogies certainly since the end of WWI. Many conflicts including (and especially) the Middle East are products of decisions taken then. Central American, African and Asian disputes have roots in successful or attempted interference in their democratic processes, to manipultae results that worked better with the West's political and economic goals.

I would agree that for us in the west, our own countries are an easy target for criticism and America which sets the trend will naturally be scapegoated for/by those nations which choose to, or indeed in practical terms have to, follow that trend. However that trend is not always right.

I have read a number of your posts and I have come to the conclusion that you are not as niaive as this post would suggest...I think this particular post of yours was written of lieu of eating worms.....

[Tjol]

In a recent poll here in Australia, who along with the Brits are your staunchest allies, 32% did not believe OBL was actually dead: that's a third of Australians who were convinced the US was lying. That erosion of your international credibility is something to be proud of?

So if I told enough lies about you, that people started to believe those lies... it would be your fault, not mine for telling the lies?

You are working from a false premise, that people only believe lies about the US because the US has given them reason to. You forget that the US has been a rhetorical boogey man for any number of despots. Well, the US and Israel. If you're a despot, and you need to keep the people looking in the other direction while you commit your crimes? Just tell a lie that the US and Israel are out to get them. Nothing unites a people like a foreign enemy, aye?

Oh, I know, you really think all those despots have been telling the truth. You really believe that France and Germany and Kofi Annan only had moral objections to going after Saddam, it had nothing to do with the oil for bribes kickbacks that they were getting from Saddam.

Which is to say, you believe the lie that you want to believe. But it's your fault for believing those lies, not the US's for being lied about.

[finn]

......Wolf!

[Vraith]

You are working from a false premise, that people only believe lies about the US because the US has given them reason to. You forget that the US has been a rhetorical boogey man for any number of despots. Well, the US and Israel. If you're a despot, and you need to keep the people looking in the other direction while you commit your crimes? Just tell a lie that the US and Israel are out to get them. Nothing unites a people like a foreign enemy, aye?


Which is to say, you believe the lie that you want to believe. But it's your fault for believing those lies, not the US's for being lied about.

That is all true. But it is also only part of the truth. We have been the evil other of some despots...but we also have history of supporting despots. We say we favor freedom, yet provide backing for some who suppress freedom at all costs. Our own hypocrisy is as responsible for a lack of credibility as the propaganda of our enemies.