Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:00 pm
Something always strikes you when you re-read the Chronicles. That's why you do!
Don't take it personal! Ok, I mean, now I won't read anymore...
Kevin's Watch
Official Discussion Forum for the works of Stephen R. Donaldson
https://kevinswatch.com/phpBB3/
RE-READING THE ENTIRE CHRONICLES
Page 5 of 5
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:57 pm
Agreed WF. And yes Cord, I should've mentioned, I probably won't read any comments here until I'm done Don't take it personal!
Ok, I mean, now I won't read anymore...
Don't take it personal! Ok, I mean, now I won't read anymore...
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:06 pm
Cybrweez wrote:Agreed WF. And yes Cord, I should've mentioned, I probably won't read any comments here until I'm done
Ok, I mean, now I won't read anymore...
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:17 pm
Stave smiled.
Awesome! Love the story of the Haruchai in these Chronicles. You spend most of them getting pissed, though I can see where they're coming from. But who else goes through such a change than this group? I'm glad the last 4 books were just as good as originals. Great job SRD. Now I can go read through everyone's thoughts.
Awesome! Love the story of the Haruchai in these Chronicles. You spend most of them getting pissed, though I can see where they're coming from. But who else goes through such a change than this group? I'm glad the last 4 books were just as good as originals. Great job SRD. Now I can go read through everyone's thoughts.
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:16 am
+JMJ+
Not having full access, I'm not sure whether every use was returned in the results. And some of the results didn't have a page number, nor was the entire sentence always available in the preview. Nevertheless, here are the results I got, with extra context where needed, and I arranged them in the order which, to me at least, seemed most telling.
Well, I decided to do a search on google books. I did searches for "providence", "provident", "providential" and "providentially". I got no hits for "providential".Zarathustra wrote:You know, I'm tired of just taking your word on this. Quote the text where it occurs. Show us the context and page number so we can look it up ourselves.Wosbald wrote:"Providence" is used. Fact.
Not having full access, I'm not sure whether every use was returned in the results. And some of the results didn't have a page number, nor was the entire sentence always available in the preview. Nevertheless, here are the results I got, with extra context where needed, and I arranged them in the order which, to me at least, seemed most telling.
Coincidence? You decide."Well, damn," Covenant muttered. "If that isn't providence, I don't know what is." He felt unexpectedly cheered, as if an old friend had taken him by surprise. "Hell, I don't even know what the word means." — The Last Dark, p. 102
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Providence in all sooth. Even here, so many leagues away from the wonders of the Land that he had known in life, there were still gifts—
Now he prayed that food and water would sustain him well enough for what lay ahead. — The Last Dark, p. 103
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Linden started to say, Don't worry about it, but the Ironhand continued without pausing. "In truth, we knew not how to measure your need against our own. And we did not imagine that we would encounter no aliantha along our course." Then she grinned grimly. "However, great Narunal is provident. We do not lack for water." — The Last Dark, p. 152
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As the horses slowed, Branl stated with quiet satisfaction, "The Land is provident—as is Rallyn. Here we will find both water and sustenance. Corruption's wars did not extend into this region. Nor do the blights of Sarangrave Flat." — The Last Dark
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Then she snatched herself back, startled by what she felt. "My God, Liand," she breathed; but she should not have been surprised. Over and over again, the Land had demonstrated its provident richness. "I think that you can affect the weather." — Fatal Revenant, p. 379
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Before long, however, as she and her companions rounded a hilltop on their way to the next rise, something ahead of her tugged at her senses, and when she looked toward it, she saw a clump of aliantha.
No wonder she loved the Land. Its providence delighted her. — The Runes of the Earth
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His feet were numb: he could not feel his way. Instead he simply assumed that the sand shelved down gradually. Relying on blind luck or the Land's providence, he lurched into the current. — Against All Things Ending, p. 279
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discover the space he needed, except by accident or providence.
Another intersection. This time, Clyme turned right into a break so narrow that he was forced to squeeze along it sideways. Groaning, Covenant wedged himself between the walls. — Against All Things Ending
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"Being sailors," Coldspray continued, "they have borne with them a goodly quantity of rope. Such providence will surely serve us well." — The Last Dark, p. 374
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"Aye, Manethrall," assented the Ironhand. "The Ramen are provident as well as courteous. For many reasons, we grieve those Giants whom the Land names the Unhomed. Among our sorrows is this, that their fate precluded us from hearing their tales of both the Ranyhyn and the Ramen." — Against All Things Ending
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"Fortuitously," Cabledarm proclaimed to Linden, "we are Giants, and provident. In addition to water, we bear treasure-berries. They will feed us well enough for the present, and perhaps for the morrow as well." — The Last Dark, p. 301
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As she did so, she found that the Mahdoubt's providence had done her more good than she had realized. Her muscles protested, but they did not fail. Indeed, they hardly trembled. Food and springwine and soothing warmth had eased her weakness, although they could not relieve her exhaustion, or soften her heart. — Fatal Revenant, p. 291
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The Mahdoubt had come. But surely she had no power to compare with the Harrow's? She could cross time. And she could pass unseen to appear where she was needed. She was provident and considerate. But she had evinced no magic like that which the Harrow had repulsed Stave and the Humbled. — Fatal Revenant, p. 352
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Linden had told Bill that Roger was not dangerous enough for guns. Now she knew better.
Providentially, Sandy answered the phone almost at once. "Hello?" — The Runes of the Earth
Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:30 pm
Wow, I was getting a little frustrated in that discussion. Sorry about that, Wos.
I'm not sure what you think the quotes prove. I acknowledged that Donaldson uses the word(s). I think the quotes back up my point that he's not talking about anything divine, supernatural, or external (transcendent). Most of the time, he's talking about people satisfying their hunger or thirst, rather than something spiritual.
Here SRD explicitly calls into question the meaning/usage of the word, letting us know that we shouldn't take it literally. His protagonist is using the word ironically, and then calling attention to this fact for the readers. They found some food in an unexpected place. That's lucky, not miraculous.
Several other quotes are along the same lines: the Land providing food and water. Again, this is a natural, physical, "earthly" (or "Landly") connotation of the word. It plays upon the reverence humans once held for things like the return of spring and nature's bounty, which were greeted with such gratitude as to invoke feelings of "holy" and "miraculous." But it's just nature doing what it does. Using providence in this sense to describe perfectly natural things is only an expression of the gratitude of the characters, the fact that they don't take such things for granted. It's similar to the distinction Donaldson was trying to point out between viewing nature with Healthsense and seeing it as mere "scenery."
I'm not sure what you think the quotes prove. I acknowledged that Donaldson uses the word(s). I think the quotes back up my point that he's not talking about anything divine, supernatural, or external (transcendent). Most of the time, he's talking about people satisfying their hunger or thirst, rather than something spiritual.
"Well, damn," Covenant muttered. "If that isn't providence, I don't know what is." He felt unexpectedly cheered, as if an old friend had taken him by surprise. "Hell, I don't even know what the word means." - The Last Dark, p. 102
Here SRD explicitly calls into question the meaning/usage of the word, letting us know that we shouldn't take it literally. His protagonist is using the word ironically, and then calling attention to this fact for the readers. They found some food in an unexpected place. That's lucky, not miraculous.
Several other quotes are along the same lines: the Land providing food and water. Again, this is a natural, physical, "earthly" (or "Landly") connotation of the word. It plays upon the reverence humans once held for things like the return of spring and nature's bounty, which were greeted with such gratitude as to invoke feelings of "holy" and "miraculous." But it's just nature doing what it does. Using providence in this sense to describe perfectly natural things is only an expression of the gratitude of the characters, the fact that they don't take such things for granted. It's similar to the distinction Donaldson was trying to point out between viewing nature with Healthsense and seeing it as mere "scenery."
Here "providence" is used in conjunction with "accident." In other words, it means "lucky."discover the space he needed, except by accident or providence.
Another intersection. This time, Clyme turned right into a break so narrow that he was forced to squeeze along it sideways. Groaning, Covenant wedged himself between the walls. - Against All Things Ending
Here "providence" means "planning for the future.""Being sailors," Coldspray continued, "they have borne with them a goodly quantity of rope. Such providence will surely serve us well." - The Last Dark, p. 374
Here "provident" is a characteristic of people, on par with other mundane characteristics such as being courteous. It means "generous," in this context."Aye, Manethrall," assented the Ironhand. "The Ramen are provident as well as courteous. For many reasons, we grieve those Giants whom the Land names the Unhomed. Among our sorrows is this, that their fate precluded us from hearing their tales of both the Ranyhyn and the Ramen." - Against All Things Ending
Again, "providence" is equated with satiating one's hunger and/or thirst. Getting your grub on. Nothing supernatural there.As she did so, she found that the Mahdoubt's providence had done her more good than she had realized. Her muscles protested, but they did not fail. Indeed, they hardly trembled. Food and springwine and soothing warmth had eased her weakness, although they could not relieve her exhaustion, or soften her heart. - Fatal Revenant, p. 291
Again, "provident" is a characteristic of a person, on par with "considerate." This is just like the Ramen example. Once again, it means, "generous."The Mahdoubt had come. But surely she had no power to compare with the Harrow's? She could cross time. And she could pass unseen to appear where she was needed. She was provident and considerate. But she had evinced no magic like that which the Harrow had repulsed Stave and the Humbled. - Fatal Revenant, p. 352
It means "lucky" here.Linden had told Bill that Roger was not dangerous enough for guns. Now she knew better.
Providentially, Sandy answered the phone almost at once. "Hello?" - The Runes of the Earth
Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:05 pm
Providence is just deus ex machina from a different point of view.
Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:46 pm
I don't understand why the argument doesn't end there. The ONLY sense of "providence" that is consistent with Donaldson's own explicit characterization of the POINT of his story, is one that avoids any external connotation and focuses on a purely human meaning. In this sense, providence can only mean "lucky" at best.Donaldson wrote:... any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD
You can continue to miss the point if you want. But you're only talking about your own personal feelings, in direct, explicit contradiction with SRD's stated intentions.
Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:32 pm
The central issue in the Chronicles is the ability of humans to make choices that make a difference, even in the most seemingly hopeless situations - as Covenant eventually does in the First Chronicles, as do Covenant and Linden in the Second Chronicles, as do Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah in the Last Chronicles, and as do various other characters at crucial junctures. If it is not those human choices that make the difference, but Providence that delivers a happy ending, the whole point of the story is lost.
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:12 am
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:53 am
Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+Do we see that? Or do we see an arrogant, cocksure, and reckless Linden whose deeds only conduce to ruin?dlbpharmd wrote:I think it was Fist who first helped me understand that essentially at the end of WGW, Linden has grown into a capable and confident woman who has put her self-doubt and self-recrimination behind her. However, in ROTE and again in FR, we see only the same Linden that we came to know and understand in TOT.
I wanted to chime in on this after reading the first page or two of this thread, was interested to see how it was going to go, but thenwayfriend wrote:Well, that's a bit outside my ken, except to understand Sanatana Dharma as 'cosmic principles'. But I was still hoping you could expound on the "cocksure and reckless" thing. I have heard people make the "reckless" criticism before, but not "arrogantly confident". I was wondering how you saw Linden that way.Wosbald wrote:I don't filter SDR through Christianity (except, at most, proleptically). He's simply not writing from that POV, just as Tolkien did not. They both write from the POV of the Sanatana Dharma, so that's how I read them.
P.S. I have made Linden a bit of a study. Knowing what opinions people have helps to know what issues need to be explored.
Spoiler
providence
Uh, I forget some of my more intelligenter points, but the gist was that after my last re-read of the Last Chronicles, I thought Linden was a bad-ass! She was like Liam Neeson in those Taken movies, all "They took my son and I am going to get him BACK."
In Runes and Revenant, she doesn't let anything get in her way, and she is constantly rising up to challenges, going above and beyond. (Retrieving the Staff and the way she did it: caesures and warped waynhim; standing up to and facing down the Masters; chewing through her pain to put up with faux TC and J; storming into Berek's camp; walloping the two J/Gerry's under MS; resurrection.
I think there is some arrogance and recklessness in there. I'm not ready to retrieve exact quotes, but I am finishing up TIW and think I might peek into TPTP, who knows, I might be launching into a full re-read, and if I do, I'll try to keep these ideas in mind when I get into the LC's.